1k Rules Dispute

[ewerybody]

Darn. Its not working real proper here

I created fresh maya prefs and much better. So it won't work on meters! (don't ask, yep we still work with meters)

But as far as I can see its a maya breakout game :] wowoowowow! Awesome!

Update!Update!! Yea I made it work! But I had to set the playback speed to 250. 600 was to fast for me . I was just about to clear the whole level. (Is there a second level!?!) But then The ball was catched in the paddle, bounced up and down from left to right and left the paddle... downwards :[
There is nothing happening if you blow it now, right?

Hey Milo! Thanks a lot! Cool Entry. Maybe we set up a real compo soon, someday everyone has time..

[milodc]

QUOTE(Naughty @ 02/16/07, 02:13 AM) [snapback]260159[/snapback]
that's cool Milo, but your submission is disqualified as you break one of the primary rules!

4.) The file must run on drag & drop into the viewport of a new Maya scene. No additional actions needed.

(although I must admit, reading it back it does come across as optional, rather than mandatory!)

also, the bricks are all invisible (maya 6.5, 7.0.1 and 8.0..?!)

It runs on drag-and-drop. The script simply includes code to pause movement of the ball until the paddle is moved -- as a courtesy to player.

The bricks are probably hard to see because you aren't working in centimeters. Can I forcibly switch the user to cm and NTSC time? I thought that violated rule no. 7.

QUOTE(ewerybody)
I created fresh maya prefs and much better. So it won't work on meters! (don't ask, yep we still work with meters)

Simply moving all cameras far from the origin before drag-and-dropping a script is sufficient to break all of the submissions made here (including mine, if you aren't working in centimeters). Are we really being that nit-picky about environmental conditions?

Another easy way to break a script is simply to run someone else's script first. e.g. Drag-and-drop MEL_1kCOMPO_MRCOKE.mel, then try to drag-and-drop MEL_1kCOMPO_Naughtys.mel.

Or I could just change my UI colors.

Again, I thought about forcibly changing the user's units to centimeters, but that seems to violate rule no. 7.

Whoever came up with this idea should probably establish some environmental pre-conditions. Space and time units, UI colors, empty scene, no non-standard global variables before execution, minimum Maya version, etc.

[ewerybody]

QUOTE(MiloDC @ 02/16/07, 01:10 PM) [snapback]260173[/snapback]
Again, I thought about forcibly changing the user's units to centimeters, but that seems to violate rule no. 7.
Nahh.. not if you switch it back to the initial state ;]

QUOTE(MiloDC @ 02/16/07, 01:10 PM) [snapback]260173[/snapback]
Whoever came up with this idea should probably establish some environmental pre-conditions. Space and time units, UI colors, empty scene, no non-standard global variables before execution, minimum Maya version, etc.
I think every script should run on a fresh default-Maya if it doesn't on your customized one (rename your settings restart maya...) Shall we add this to the rules somehow?

Nevertheless this is a hell of a cool script Milo!

Edit: btw: I relaxed rule Nr4 a little. That opens possibilities a lot more and does not harm the whole thing.

[milodc]

QUOTE(ewerybody @ 02/16/07, 04:28 AM) [snapback]260174[/snapback]
Nahh.. not if you switch it back to the initial state ;]

But that's my point. If I have to set then reset everything in the user's environment that could possibly break my script, then I won't have much room (if any at all) to do anything else.

Again, I can come up with a ton of ways to make all of our submissions useless.

You guys need to amend the rules with environmental pre-conditions.

QUOTE(ewerybody @ 02/16/07, 04:28 AM) [snapback]260174[/snapback]
I think every script should run on a fresh default-Maya if it doesn't on your customized one (rename your settings restart maya...) Shall we add this to the rules somehow?

Nevertheless this is a hell of a cool script Milo!

What are the default Maya temporal and spatial units?

In the meantime, I've modified the script to temporarily change the user's units. Had to resort to one line of code, though!

milo_1K_mel.zip

[naughty]

QUOTE(MiloDC @ 02/16/07, 05:10 AM) [snapback]260178[/snapback]
It runs on drag-and-drop.

yeah, that's fine.. but the fact that you need instructions to play it (select tx channel and MMB-drag?) disqualifies it based on part B of rule 4): no additional actions needed

QUOTE
If I have to set then reset everything in the user's environment that could possibly break my script, then I won't have much room (if any at all) to do anything else.

tough. some of us managed it.

QUOTE
Again, I can come up with a ton of ways to make all of our submissions useless.

yeah, maybe if you IGNORE the existing rules: 4.) The file must run on drag & drop into the viewport of a new Maya scene. no additional actions needed.

QUOTE
You guys need to amend the rules with environmental pre-conditions.

The rules are sound, as long as you actually bother to read and understand them.

Ewerybody, if you don't force the rule about no additional actions needed (in fact, you should re-word it to no additional actions ALLOWED!!) then it kind of defeats the point of it being 1K, as the author can stipulate the user does all the set-up things his script should do..

Milo, please don't have a sulk-strop. Your MEL is cool, but it's not fully appropriate in this context (although it could still be with a re-write!)
and yes, I know it's all just for fun, but what's the point in having any rules at all if we're just gonna ignore them in the name of cool fun..?

:nathaN

[joojaa]

Well the 4th restriction is there so anybody can benefit and see the coolness. Not just us. BUt this said you can easily change your code to work.

[milodc]

QUOTE('Naughty')
QUOTE('MiloDC')
It runs on drag-and-drop.
yeah, that's fine.. but the fact that you need instructions to play it (select tx channel and MMB-drag?) disqualifies it based on part B of rule 4): no additional actions needed

No it doesn't. The instructions are merely a courtesy; I'm sure that more people know how to play breakout than Plinko or an obscure version of Pac-Man (no offense to the writers of those great scripts).

Again, the ball pauses before the paddle is moved. If I create a button control that freezes action until the user presses it, the effect is the same.

If I want, I can remove the code that makes the ball pause before the user moves the paddle. Then the ball comes down and the user scrambles to catch it. What fun is that?

QUOTE('Naughty')
QUOTE('MiloDC')
If I have to set then reset everything in the user's environment that could possibly break my script, then I won't have much room (if any at all) to do anything else.
tough. some of us managed it.

Don't flatter yourself just yet. What we all "manage" unfortunately varies from coder to coder.

As I wrote above, Your MEL_1kCOMPO_Naughtys.mel results in an error if I run MEL_1kCOMPO_MRCOKE.mel first, while mine does not.

Likewise, in Maya 6.01, your script gets ugly to a degree of pointlessness if I set my time units to, say, milliseconds. In any version of Maya, it turns to utter ass if my up-axis is Z instead of Y.

Your code also leaves my playback loop type to "oscillate" and my playback speed to 30fps -- both of which violate rule no. 7.

And all of this is just the tip of the iceberg, baby. I could break your stuff (or anyone else's) all day long, to the point where you'd just throw up your hands and give up -- unless you people start refining the rules.

QUOTE('Naughty')
QUOTE('MiloDC')
Again, I can come up with a ton of ways to make all of our submissions useless.
You guys need to amend the rules with environmental pre-conditions.

yeah, maybe if you IGNORE the existing rules: 4.) The file must run on drag & drop into the viewport of a new Maya scene. no additional actions needed.
The rules are sound, as long as you actually bother to read and understand them.

How does my script not run on drag-and-drop? Does user input (e.g. moving a paddle or a little yellow ball) count as "additional actions"? If so, then how is that clear in the rules?

QUOTE('Naughty')
Ewerybody, if you don't force the rule about no additional actions needed in fact, you should re-word it to no additional actions ALLOWED!! then it kind of defeats the point of it being 1K, as the author can stipulate the user does all the set-up things his script should do..

Milo, please don't have a sulk-strop. Your MEL is cool, but it's not fully appropriate in this context (although it could still be with a re-write!)
and yes, I know it's all just for fun, but what's the point in having any rules at all if we're just gonna ignore them in the name of cool fun..?

What "sulk-strop"? As I see it, I broke no rules; I don't see how challenging your assertion that I have amounts to sulking.

Until now, I didn't mention the flaws in your code (which I encountered the first time I ran it), because it was clear to me that the 1K MEL rules are nebulous. It's pointless to be fastidious or haughty about nebulous rules. Check your ego.

Ewerybody has been very civil in his efforts to clarify the rules. I think his amendment to No. 4 is a step in the right direction. Why undermine that?

[milodc]

QUOTE(Joojaa @ 02/16/07, 05:50 AM) [snapback]260183[/snapback]
Well the 4th restriction is there so anybody can benefit and see the coolness. Not just us. BUt this said you can easily change your code to work.
Again: The code does work, at least as well as anyone else's.

The user isn't required to move the paddle, and no error occurs if he doesn't.

[joojaa]

Well yes sure but how much space would it take to actually write use mmb to move Im not actually saying in your case it beraks the point. merely pointing the reason for the rule.

Yes its pretty self evident. Im merely pointing out that if you rely on something like mr you should not asume its loaded but you should load it first. Same if you sume the time usnit is set to something specific etc etc.

So yes yoyur supposed to understand other prefs are others pref. But yes i think you should change prefs back!

And no the rules are rules not guidelines.

PS. however i do think theres a limitation in mel wich makes stuff thet works well in maya 8 and 8.5 impossible hrd to squeeze to work in maya 6. and vie versa just becasue mel has changed over the years. Some things work fine others dont.

[milodc]

QUOTE('Joojaa')
Well yes sure but how much space would it take to actually write use mmb to move Im not actually saying in your case it beraks the point. merely pointing the reason for the rule.

Not that it matters, but the use of the middle mouse button is an option, not a requirement. The user can also play using the move tool -- or not move the paddle at all. In any case, the code can hardly be called broken.

QUOTE('Joojaa')
Yes its pretty self evident. Im merely pointing out that if you rely on something like mr you should not asume its loaded but you should load it first. Same if you sume the time usnit is set to something specific etc etc. So yes yoyur supposed to understand other prefs are others pref. But yes i think you should change prefs back!

Again, we can take that approach so far that no one's script will do anything (or at least, anything worth looking at) but set and reset values. The fact that I can easily break everyone's script indicates that this limitation is acknowleged and accepted by us all. For Naughty to suddenly start nit-picking my script into disqualification, while his own code obviously fails to heed the rules to the degree that he demands, is both hypocritical and counterproductive. (Rather than crying about my script, he should be helping Ewerybody to refine the "rules" -- none of which my code broke any more than anyone else's code.)

QUOTE('Joojaa')
And no the rules are rules not guidelines.

Then clarify them. Right now, you people are just making them up as you go along, under the lazy pretext of "ya shoulda known." No one to whom I showed the script before posting it thought that I'd broken a single rule.

I call on Naughty to admit (1) that his code is at least as non-compliant (by his standards) as my own, and (2) that my script owns his. After that, we can move on.

Here it is again:
milo_1K_mel.zip

As a bonus, he can further admit that my avatar would be cooler than his, if he had one.

[naughty]

is this for real Milo? or is it very cleverly crafted satire..? I honestly can't tell..?!

[milodc]

QUOTE(Naughty @ 02/16/07, 08:38 AM) [snapback]260197[/snapback]
is this for real Milo? or is it very cleverly crafted satire..? I honestly can't tell..?!

The very few satirical bits are there to fortify my main points.

To wit:

I was going to post another 1K script, but I think I'll just wait until everyone else fixes the non-compliance in theirs.

Wheeee!

[naughty]

I tried to explain as clearly as I could but maybe you don't get bold text on your setup, or it means something different to you. But I'll try one last time, and one time only as I'm pretty disappointed at how polluted this thread has become.

ok. Firstly I came up with the original rules. I tried to make them as rigid as possible to avoid any ambiguities and to make the playing field as fair as possible. You can see how this came about and developed here:

http://www.highend3d.com/boards/index.php?...228977&st=0

Ewerybody took these rules and edited them slightly and created this post. Although edited, the rules were essentially the same, with only very subtle differences, and one very important change about maya version compatability that he quite rightly omitted.

Nowhere is there a rule which disqualifies "broken" code. If your script does not work in certain circumstances this does not disqualify it and nowhere does it say that this is the case. Obviously the more cases your script performs as intended, the better it is, but as long as you don't break any of the existing 7 rules you qualify.

I have no idea why you have thought anyone is saying your actual MEL file is disqualified, because it is entirely valid and it conforms to all 7 rules. It is your SUBMISSION that is disqualified on the grounds of rule 4.p2. It is nothing to do with drag/drop. Your MEL works fine as drag/drop. the part of the rule you have broken is "no additional actions needed" If you simply removed the text file that accompanies the MEL there'd be no problem. I realise that you feel the text is valid because it doesn't actually change the script's functionality or setup, but rules are there for a reason. If it was allowed in your case why not allow an accompanying text file that said:

"drag/drop script into Maya, create two poly meshes, select them both and type "runMEL" in the script editor."

Rules should be black and white with no exception otherwise there's just going to be arguments and upset participants. and now, thanks to you spitting out your dummy Ewerybody has has to change this rigid rule and made it more ambiguous and open to "abuse" (imho). You may disagree. fine.

Yes, my entry and presumably others don't work on certain versions of Maya. This makes them worse than yours in one respect but it does not disqualify them. Also, rule 7 was added by Ewerybody and is very ambiguous.. what constitutes "Maya setup" exactly? considering things like playback speed, fps, panel layout, etc.. can be modified by opening a scene I'd say things like this don't count. you may again disagree but either way it needs to be clarified by Ewerybody (personally I'd omit Rule 7 but hey... thankfully I'm not in charge here.)

The fact that you have made such a fuss over a comment that was accompanied with a wink emoticon denoting it wasn't to be taken seriously (this is what means right?!?) makes me wonder if this is simply a case of the lady doth protest too much...

:nathaN

[ewerybody]

eeaase everybody

Naughty? we already had scripts with UI and stuff where you HAD to do something to run it.
Of course we are here to discuss.: My opinion is that this is entirely for fun so we could get more out of it if we relax rule Nr4 this way. Making a click doesn't hurt someone. This rule is just to keep it as simple as possible for the user. As there isn't a "real" competition yet it shouldn't be so stiff.

But as I said.. maybe lets setup one soon ("real" competition")? Either make a date and everyone scripts to a given time, maybe 2 or 3 hours, a special topic so no one can use previous code and of course fixed rules! Or a timeframe of 2 days or so.

Joojaa? Can we add a poll to this topic so one can vote for the entries? (Can we add poll options later for later added entries?) And shall we move the recent discussion to Milos post so we keep this the submission topic?

[milodc]

QUOTE(Naughty @ 02/16/07, 09:45 AM) [snapback]260199[/snapback]
I tried to explain as clearly as I could but maybe you don't get bold text on your setup, or it means something different to you. But I'll try one last time, and one time only as I'm pretty disappointed at how polluted this thread has become....

[blah blah blah]

... The fact that you have made such a fuss over a comment that was accompanied with a wink emoticon denoting it wasn't to be taken seriously (this is what means right?!?) makes me wonder if this is simply a case of the lady doth protest too much...

I didn't make a fuss at all. I merely disagreed with your claim that my submission wasn't valid, as I didn't see that claim supported by the rules. (And I still don't, despite your sudden barrage of qualifications. My including a courtesy text file in my ZIP counts as an "extra action"? Yeah, right.)

Where the "fuss" came in was when you turned the thread ugly, with your "tough, the rest of us managed it" and "you didn't bother to read and understand the rules" quips. There was no call for your arrogant and indignant tone, which you have maintained right up to the present time (e.g. "thanks to you spitting out your dummy"). You brought on the very ruin of etiquette that you now seek to mitigate.

Next time, watch your ego and try not to be so easily incensed. People who don't agree with you aren't villains.

In order to avoid thread degradation in the future, I'll post my next 1K MEL script (which is already completed) when I think you aren't looking.

QUOTE(ewerybody @ 02/16/07, 10:40 AM) [snapback]260205[/snapback]
... Joojaa? Can we add a poll to this topic so one can vote for the entries? (Can we add poll options later for later added entries?) And shall we move the recent discussion to Milos post so we keep this the submission topic?

Good ideas.

[joojaa]

Moved you here. as per request.

O don't think a extra files any problem. But would be best if it was jut plain mel.

However i do not say its strictly bad if you post it into the normal system. But would be nice if the links would be just what they are.

But your all qute stout but bear in mind not most people can take this level of fighting without damage

[milodc]

QUOTE(Joojaa @ 02/16/07, 01:01 PM) [snapback]260227[/snapback]
Moved you here. as per request.
O don't think a extra files any problem. But would be best if it was jut plain mel.

However i do not say its strictly bad if you post it into the normal system. But would be nice if the links would be just what they are.

But your all qute stout but bear in mind not most people can take this level of fighting without damage

I'm used to it. HighEnd3D is just one of many valuable online forums frequented by a few officious elitists.

[joojaa]

On that subject tough.

PS guys have you ever considered packing your 1k.mel entries.

[milodc]

QUOTE(Joojaa @ 02/17/07, 01:17 AM) [snapback]260266[/snapback]
[img]http://www.highend3d.com/boards/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img] On that subject tough.

PS guys have you ever considered packing your 1k.mel entries.

Packing them? What do you mean?

[rob-bateman]

i considered it, then i had some work to do, and the 1k comp fell by the wayside.... By packing, he means compressing the script into a smaller bit of byte code that can be uncompressed into a string and then executed by eval.... a technique that most of the 64kb intro people use....