Rendering + cpu's part II

[virtualfm]

hi there!
i asked myself the same question about cpu's. which one is better for rendering? amd or intel.
after a lot of research im still pretty confused. that may be caused by the fact that u cant trust the production houses about stats on their cpu's.
for example: http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_756_809^2003~10653,00.html

in this test(softimage xsi benchmarks), the 2GHz pentium4 is about 29 percent slower than the athlon mp 2100(which runs at only 1,733GHz).
so here is my question to u: how can this be? how can the slower cpu beat the faster one??? they come to the same stats when testing the athlon xp 2200 and pentium4 2.4MHz.
so whats wrong here. are all the stats they tell us crap? who should we believe now?
i dont want to buy an amd and overclock it to its maximum. i just want to plug that cpu in and have smooth realtime preview/rendertimes.
so... could anybody please tell me where to find benchmarks i can believe in or why the slower clocked amd's are faster than the pentiums.
thx in advance, im looking forward to some interesting posts.

[1000101-]

The discreptancies between slower clocked CPU's vs faster clocked CPU's stems from a number of factors.
1. the floating point calculator on the p4 is completely different from p3's and athlons; its designed to handle bigger numbers with more precision but goes about doing things in a fashion online the p3's before it.
This is where software optimiziations come into play
2. the AMD CPU's have wider pipes inside if you will for moving data about. so a 1.6ghz AMD vs a 1.6ghz intel; the AMD will typically outperform it by a fairly healthy margin.
All in all; with the software written pre 2002 (before anyone really began putting p4 optimizations in it) Will run better on AMD CPU's. However its noted that AMD's next generation will use this similiar p4 style floating point unit.
What should you buy? well either machine will be quite the best to be honest. Though I will say that current AMD architecture is at the end of its life. Its reached a ceiling of clockspeed at right around 2ghz it seems. Whereas intel's current p4 architecture has been proven to function beyond 3ghz(a 2.2 overclocked to 3ghz that ran stable shows alot of promise for the p4) And though clock for clock; the AMD seems faster; the bottom line is; when the p4 hits 3ghz it will be the absolute fastest on the market unless AMD can get its clock speeds up to par.
So if I were to make a buy; I'd probably go with a p4 based system if I had the budget; just because I know I can upgrade to a 3ghz CPU when it becomes available and be less likely to do a motherboard swap.
More research might behoove you; check anandtech; the performance database here; cgtalK i think; and a few other hardware resources. Of course beware of zealots on both sides of the argument. Intel freaks will tell you AMD's run hot and aren't as stable (they run hotter but are every bit as stable as intel); and AMD zealots will tell you that AMD is almost twice as fast for half the price and that the 800mhz clawhammer will run faster than 4ghz p4's and whatnot.
One question I have for you; is what renderer do you intend to use?

[virtualfm]

thx alot man!

this is VERY interesting! to make one thing clear at first, im not an intel freak(damn im not). and so im rethinking the situation at the moment...but i think i still prefere the pentium4 too.

u write:
"All in all; with the software written pre 2002 (before anyone really began putting p4 optimizations in it) Will run better on AMD CPU's. However its noted that AMD's next generation will use this similiar p4 style floating point unit"....
that makes me think.. big software companies will do (or already have done) optimization for intel first because its the "bigger company". or am i wrong?

also:
"Though I will say that current AMD architecture is at the end of its life. Its reached a ceiling of clockspeed at right around 2ghz it seems. Whereas intel's current p4 architecture has been proven to function beyond 3ghz"...
well, i think ure right.. the p4 uses mikro-pga(thinner conductive strips). i dont know if it really makes a difference and at what percentage it might be but this is the way to go (or they need a totally new cpu structure). i also dont know very much about pentium overclocking 'cause all research we did focused on amd's.

i use softimageXSI so the renderer is mental ray v.3.0 + Final Gathering and Global Illumination.
so my last questions are. which cpu is the fastest for xsi at the moment (except the p4 2,40GHz cause its too expensive), is this app already p4 optimiced? and how long will it last till evolution will change everything? i dont expect exact facts... just what u think at the moment. 'cause all the hardwareguys i know say that i should get an amd.. but for me its just about the actual speed of the rendering/editing process and these guys are not really into 3d. but if its true that if i plug an athlon XP2200 onto a mid-class socket-a motherboard, softimage will perform way faster than with a p4 2,26GHz, and it looks like it does, i would get an amd. and how long will it take till even better cpu's come out at the same price?half a year, a year? as i sayd, i dont expect exact facts... just what u think at the moment.

thx alot... and please excuse my bad english..

[robin-scher]

I have two thoughts that I use when buying hardware:

1. Always get the most expensive thing I can afford when I'm making the purchase.

2. Always assume I am never going to upgrade the machine I buy.

Details:
1. If you have a budget of x dollars, spend the budget. You'll never complain about having too much power or speed. If you are realistic about what your budgets are, then you won't overspend. just be aware of what you are getting.

remember that "most expensive" really means best price/performance. If i had $2,000 to spend on a render only box, i could probably get better performance out of AMD than Intel at this moment. Thay may change down the road. If I had $50,000 to spend on a whole render farm, it may be different. I may be able to get a larger quantity of slower chips.

1. There is this myth, oh i can just upgrade my machine when the new chip comes out! First, when was the last time you actually "upgraded" a machine's processor? I have been using PCs since the 1989 and I have never simply swapped out a chip on the same motherboard. The reason is that the cost of getting that 3GHz P4 is going to be a lot, and then you're stuck with the 2.25GHz chip that is totally useless.

A much better approach (in my opinion) is to buy a whole new machine when you want that new chip. That way, your investment in the old chip is not wasted, cuz you can still use it. Either as a second workstation or stick it into your render farm.

Obviously, this is talking about chips only. Addig RAM or getting a better graphics card is a little different, though with the current prices of the highest end graphics cards, I would probably treat them more like CPUs. On the other hand, it's probably easier to sell a secod-hand, high-end graphics card than a used CPU.

Course, these are just my thoughts.

[1000101-]

Honestly i don't use mental ray. So I couldn't tlel you what runs it better. If i had to guess though off the top of my head; a pair of 2.5ghz p4's will probably move pretty fast.
As for not expecting to upgrade the chip in your motherboard; I went from a 350 to a 750 on the same board; made night and day difference. If you have a dual 2.5ghz CPU that seem skinda sluggish and dual 3.2's are out and they'll work in your board; why not save a buck or 2 hehe.

[c-a--4]

I'd have to agree with most of these post. I just built a small render farm and went with single p4's. There are many arguments for either AMD or Intel. I wanted less noise. (smaller/quieter power supplies and slower fans) But, the big reason is that I can re-sell the P4 boards in the near future much faster and at a better price than i could AMD's or older p3's.