After Effects And Maya

[dwgregg3d]

Years ago running a Symbolics, the system had a combination of 3D animation and 2D animation that were integrated to the point that I could do 2D animations that ran mapped on 3D surfaces (more or less interactively). The combination was powerful then even with a very slow machine. Of course, running a file sequence as a mapped texture is easy enough, but is a far cry from direct interactive adjustment with immediate feedback.

I've often wanted a robust bridge that allows Maya to call After Effects on a frame-by-frame basis so that 2D animations and subsections of comps can be called and interactively adjusted (2D comp and animation adjustments done in AE with Maya simply calling a fresh non-cached frame).

It would be nice if AE animations could be used like any other image or image sequence is used. It would provide a great deal of precise control over a host of motion textural effects and other 2D animations in the 3D environment.

It would make a nice little product.

[gmask]

Other current 3D developers who also develop compositing programs have this integration. Sicne Adobe and Autodesk are are or less at odds with one another I wouldn't expect tight itnegration between those two product sto happen anytime soon.

[dwgregg3d]

I was hoping for something not too involved like a Maya frame action able to call an AE script and then refresh Maya's image input.

I didn't know that Adobe and Autodesk were at odds. It's too bad because a full compositing/2D animation package integrated with 3D is very powerful in deed.

[gmask]

QUOTE(dwgregg3d @ 08/10/07, 04:09 PM) [snapback]271330[/snapback]
I didn't know that Adobe and Autodesk were at odds.

Autodesk makes several compositing programs (combustion, flame and toxik).. therefore Adobe is their direct competitor.

On ething I have wanted to beable to do in Maya is to use eps files as textures that rerasterize at each frame so that you can zoom into them without using huge texture files but so far they haven't done it.

[joojaa]

QUOTE
On ething I have wanted to beable to do in Maya is to use eps files as textures that rerasterize at each frame so that you can zoom into them without using huge texture files but so far they haven't done it.

theres one russian guy who made this rasterisation for renderman, so it is possible but due to the nature of sampling its not necessarily very feasible for filtering purposes. It is possible to write a dso wrapper for prettymuch any renderer to use this code.

QUOTE
Years ago running a Symbolics, the system had a combination of 3D animation and 2D animation that were integrated to the point that I could do 2D animations that ran mapped on 3D surfaces

Anyway you can do it already not hard by any means (tough i prefer to use shake, wich causes a problem since the shake is on another machine, but no biggie i save it out and read the comp back into maya renderview, and parameters can off course be inside maya).

QUOTE
It's too bad because a full compositing/2D animation package integrated with 3D is very powerful in deed.

they tried this route years ago, but for some reason studios prefer not to meddle in this, because they are in general 2 different occupations, and having 2 applications side by side isnt a problem that is after all the reason we have windowing systems. But also mainly because they are developped at different time and space, rendering taking forever and the comp usually being almost real time.

Anyway if you do this open AE, open maya do proveiw render (maya puts theese images on disk), then reference theese files into your AE build your comp. Now when you rerender in maya it owerwrites those files, so to see the update in AE all you need to do is ask for AE to referesh. If you want this image can then be saved and read back into maya window.

now the other way around is a bit trickyer, but can also be done as long as you push your result on disk. and let maya read the texture information form there.

Ps mayas actually a pretty decent comp app, most people don't realize it tough, so aside for time morphs maya can pretty much do all that ae can and more, i wouldnt do it unless i was down on my luck but it can be done.

So the surfece texture network can do all that ae could possibly do but with a bit of tweaking.

[dwgregg3d]

Ps mayas actually a pretty decent comp app, most people don't realize it tough, so aside for time morphs maya can pretty much do all that ae can and more, i wouldnt do it unless i was down on my luck but it can be done.

So the surfece texture network can do all that ae could possibly do but with a bit of tweaking.

For me the issue is not so much compositing per se as running live 2D animations on all kinds of 3D surfaces for a wide variety of reasons. I use it quite a lot in Maya, but it is much easier and more precise in After Effects and Photoshop since I use AE a lot. Of course, I can always render the stuff out and then apply it, but there is nothing quite like direct interaction.

I'm guessing that a Maya frame action can call an AE command line...

Cheers,

[joojaa]

Well ruunning a video file on a image plane is no big problem, or a texture of a surface is hardly anything new. Clor correcting or animating the sequance isnt hard either.

Care to tell me whats so live about tham that you cant use mayas normal video sequencing? Do you need it projected in some manner or? Whats the purpose.

[dwgregg3d]

Care to tell me whats so live about tham that you cant use mayas normal video sequencing? Do you need it projected in some manner or? Whats the purpose.

Having had the ability to interactively run a few 2D animations on 3D surfaces before (ye ole Symbolics), I can only say that its like the difference between editing film the old fashioned way and editing video. Feedback and interaction are not one or two steps removed, but are immediate and dynamic. It's a very sweet thing to work with on the creative side where you aren't counting frame off-sets and such, rendering and then trying, but just seeing results in a single step.

This is not to say that I'm looking for total integration, just something akin to a Maya frame action that allows AE scripts and sub-comps to be treated as image sequences. A few years ago After Effects and Maya didn't like to run at the same time, but that hasn't been a problem lately.

[gmask]

I haven't looked at it in awhile but XSI has a integrated compositor.. from what I recall it allows for some funky pipelines of 3D output into a 2d comp and perhaps in reverse. The catch is that the interface for it was sparse and well very foreign if you've only ever used AE.

My point being that there is software to do this and there are solutions but AE/Maya is not be the most immediate one and I'm not going to hold my breath for that change soon.

[dwgregg3d]

I haven't looked at it in awhile but XSI has a integrated compositor.. from what I recall it allows for some funky pipelines of 3D output into a 2d comp and perhaps in reverse. The catch is that the interface for it was sparse and well very foreign if you've only ever used AE.
[b]

Yeah, I have a few licenses of XSI left over from a job a while back, but there are so many corners of Maya that I haven't had time to shine a flashlight into in a long time, that time and energy are the limitation.[/b]

My point being that there is software to do this and there are solutions but AE/Maya is not be the most immediate one and I'm not going to hold my breath for that change soon.

The funny thing is that I had the ability to input multiple 2D animations onto 3d objects in the late 1980's with a Symbolics system! (It was 80's style however, but still quite a powerful creative tool).

[gmask]

QUOTE(dwgregg3d @ 08/19/07, 04:01 PM) [snapback]271918[/snapback]
thing is that I had the ability to input multiple 2D animations onto 3d objects in the late 1980's with a Symbolics system! (It was 80's style however, but still quite a powerful creative tool).[/b]

Yea but that was in a time when your typical workstation 3d program had to come with a compositing solution of some sort because there were so few options.

I worked at a place that owned a Symbolics .. I saw it once in storage.. anyway the only way to get the graphics off it was via outputting it to tape with a composite signal (granted this may nothave been the case for all symbolics but it was with the one they had). I recall being told about other limitations of the software.

I worked with other systems that woudl allow for scripted interaction with a compositing software.

Actually come to think of it since AE can be rendered from the commandline you could very well force a file input to render AE frames as needed. It's really a matter how to tell maya to do it.

[joojaa]

QUOTE
Feedback and interaction are not one or two steps removed, but are immediate and dynamic.

I must say i dont really understand this sentence since the feedback of all 2d in maya i have is immediate (unless im doing HUGE textures)

[dwgregg3d]

QUOTE(gmask @ 08/19/07, 09:21 PM) [snapback]271922[/snapback]
Yea but that was in a time when your typical workstation 3d program had to come with a compositing solution of some sort because there were so few options.
I worked at a place that owned a Symbolics .. I saw it once in storage.. anyway the only way to get the graphics off it was via outputting it to tape with a composite signal (granted this may nothave been the case for all symbolics but it was with the one they had). I recall being told about other limitations of the software.

I worked with other systems that woudl allow for scripted interaction with a compositing software.

Actually come to think of it since AE can be rendered from the commandline you could very well force a file input to render AE frames as needed. It's really a matter how to tell maya to do it.

Symbolics is a very, very old system. Some of the original software code dates back to Tron. Mine went out to an Abekas over Ethernet. Still, for all its long past history, it was a system way ahead of its time.

Yeah, I was thinking of playing around with Maya frame actions with AE command line stuff, but I was hoping to find something already worked out (and by someone miles over my head in Mel).

[dwgregg3d]

QUOTE(Joojaa @ 08/20/07, 03:31 AM) [snapback]271932[/snapback]
I must say i dont really understand this sentence since the feedback of all 2d in maya i have is immediate (unless im doing HUGE textures)

There is a big difference between going out to another program, preparing a clip as a running texture, maybe several clips as motion alphas, adjusting timings, then outputting them, and then looking at them in Maya as compared to having the 2D package cough up a frame as needed interactively in Maya with immediate adjustment and feedback from both.

Having had this before, I can only assure you that it is a little like the difference between cutting film the old fashioned way and cutting video (not that there is a difference any more!).

cheers,

[joojaa]

QUOTE(dwgregg3d @ 08/31/07, 12:32 AM) [snapback]272554[/snapback]
There is a big difference between going out to another program, preparing a clip as a running texture, maybe several clips as motion alphas, adjusting timings, then outputting them, and then looking at them in Maya as compared to having the 2D package cough up a frame as needed interactively in Maya with immediate adjustment and feedback from both.

Yes, if you choose to do it by hand, but i can adjust the timings and the clips inside maya, i don't need to page out to AE, almost for any other reason than to retime the clip with vector field frame interpolation and the text/some of the spline animation (as easily). I can do almost all other operations AE does i can eve do stuff ae doesn't do. Hell maya even does chroma keying, tough ultimate is a bit inaccessible due to patent issues.

Besides thats what the api is there for, make a AE filter and plug that data out to a container that your API component reads in then mayas always in sync with whatever app you want. you could even push mayas interactive wiewprot trough ae if you wished, off course it would slow the image down but it would work. Problem with this is that interactive rendering in maya works differently form ae.

However i dont rellay see any good reason to synch maya with AE, ifd rather sync maya with something like motion. Which due to its hw architecture would work better with maya anyway (much better in fact as they are always real time).

Besides AE still doesent do a decent z-comp, wich makes AE the worst choice of comp app.

The hand was forced a long time ago, its only in th recent 3 years that the hardware again allowed for the same. Since your displays were optimized for certain different things. But they are now opening this up again and you will start to see thiskind of stuff.

So could you tell a scenario so i can attempt to replicate it in maya? (with possible needed footage.)

[dwgregg3d]

The hand was forced a long time ago, its only in th recent 3 years that the hardware again allowed for the same. Since your displays were optimized for certain different things. But they are now opening this up again and you will start to see thiskind of stuff.

So could you tell a scenario so i can attempt to replicate it in maya? (with possible needed footage.)

I like running 2D animated textures for a lot of things like opacity animations (multiple complex wipes), animated bumps and displacements, and mapped 2d textures where ever I can get away with them. They are faster. Having a full set of simple, easy to use, familiar, 2D animation tools as an extension of Maya's shaders would be a very powerful tool.

Again it was a powerful combination on an old, slow Symbolics (state of the art at the time) 20 years ago. It's not a hardware issue, it is a tool and practical GUI issue. Full and precise 2D animation and compositing tools as a fully active extension of Maya's shaders and textures would be a major increase in practical power.

I've never really had need of using chromakeys directly in Maya (if I get 'em someone has usually gotten themselves in trouble), but if Maya employed a full fledged 2d animation/compositing program as just another element in shaders (like a live image sequence), I could use Ultimatte and Primatte at the same time or any other 2d plugin money can buy to generate effects or whatever.

I do wish, AE had a respectable z-channel!!

[joojaa]

QUOTE
I like running 2D animated textures for a lot of things like opacity animations (multiple complex wipes), animated bumps and displacements, and mapped 2d textures where ever I can get away with them. They are faster. Having a full set of simple, easy to use, familiar, 2D animation tools as an extension of Maya's shaders would be a very powerful tool.

Oh i was afraid that you wanted something truly complex. No problem wipes are easy (to be honest had you used a modern comp app that node based you'd have figured this out by now), you'll have to wait till i get home form work, so probably next morning.

On the bonus side you an now use procedural textures that have unlimited resolution!
QUOTE
Having a full set of simple, easy to use, familiar, 2D animation tools as an extension of Maya's shaders would be a very powerful tool.

Well to be honest most applications aside Adobe has adopted the same strategy as maya for simple to use 2d nodal operators in comp so yes its only because your strictly mounted to Adobes very limited way of thinking comp. But yes making a easy interface stack as a alternative myopic don't take all that is possible approach isnt hard!

Familiar is thus the key that locks you to mediocrity here

PS. speed is slight issue because maya does not cache the stuff at each point. As maya has more use for the memory than AE does.

[unafraid]

Aside from this current discussion. After Effects and Maya do need to be more seamlessly integrated with each other. It's unfortunate if it is the case that Adobe and Autodesk don't work with each other since Adobe is one of the largest and more creative software developers out there. This relationship has to exist for the future of Maya. Otherwise a large amount of up and coming artists are going to go with what is fast, easy and works with Adobe products like Cinema 4D.

[joojaa]

QUOTE(jtate @ 06/25/08, 05:04 AM) [snapback]287450[/snapback]
since Adobe is one of the largest and more creative software developers out there.

Adobe hasn't been creative since 1990's

[unafraid]

Haha true.... I worded it wrong, I meant to say that they develop creative software. Not that they were being creative. =0)