Animating a surface by moving points

[gfxman]

Animating a surface by moving points on its extrusion path.

I created a tentacle by extrusion along a path. I would like to animate this tentacle animating points on the extrusion curve but the " key " tab is never active. I tried to create cluster ( of one, ore more points) but xsi doesn't allow me to create key frames.

So it is not possible to animate points on a curve by keyframing ?

thx

[curry]

well,SOFTIMAGE never allow animate Component direct,
so,you must be use Cluster Center

[atyss]

Bonjour GfxMan,

As far as I know, you have 3 options to do what you want:

1. Animate the extrusion
   The Extrude Along Curve operator offer several animation options. For example, in the Extrude Op ppg, go in the Transform tab and play with the parameters.

2. Shape animation
   Another option is to do shape animation. To make this short, this technique consist of copying the original object, modifying the copies, then applying those modified shapes to the original. You can find a good tutorial on this here:
   http://www.filmtecknarna.se/stefan/shape\_a...\_animation.html

3. Cluster center
   Finally, if you want to manually animate several points, you can animate clusters. Tag any point you want to animate, then click on Cluster in the very bottom of the MCP (not the one next to the big arrow). This will create a cluster for your point. Next, create a null, and with the snap on point turned on, place this null onto the point that has a cluster.
   Reselect your object, go in cluster mode (the Cluster button next to the big arrow), and do Model > Modify > Deform > Cluster Center. Pick the null. That's it! Now when you move the null, the point follows.

Hope this helps
Salutations - Cheers
Bernard Lebel

[devdoka]

To animate points directly on a surface, you need to use Shape animation. This stores the offsets between the base pose and your keyed poses. The advantage is that you have a few mixing/blending methods available for your keyshapes. The downsides are that you must move each individual point on the surface, and, if you need to change the resolution of your geometry, you'll lose all your animation to that point.

The most flexible method would be to use Nulls as skeletal deformers. This gives you complete SRT manipulation capabilities for animation as well as full use of the constraint menu while retaining the ability to swap/modify geometry at any time without losing your animation. Plus, you can play around with the envelope weights to adjust the tension between the points on the surface and the nulls they are weighted too.

Soooooo.... to animate your tentacle with the nulls method, straighten the tentacle out and place nulls where you want to deform the tentacle. Next, place the nulls into a logical hierarchy with the parent being the null at the tentacle's root, while the children are towards the tentacle's tip. You don't have to use a vertical parent-child heirarchy (optional). OKay, now select your envelope (tentacle) and apply it as an evelope to your nulls using Animate > Envelope > Set Envelope (pick the null hierarchy parent with the middle mouse button to make this quick and easy).

Once the envelope is set, you can quickly paint or manually tweak the few stray points on your tentacle. When it comes time to animate, you have many options:

1) Assign the nulls as objects on a path at various percentages. This allows you to animate the shape of a path/curve to drive the nulls which in turn deform the tentacle. This allows you to retain the flexibility of sliding the nulls along the curve to create undulations, bulges, and other cool effects.

2) Animate the nulls directly.

3) Constrain the nulls to other elements in the scene (and or use expressions)

4) Use the mixer to store poses on the nulls in clips. Mix them together to make inbetweens quickly.

Hope this helps,

Matt

---

Matt Lind
Animator / Technical Director
Softimage certified instructor:
Softimage|3D
Softimage|XSI
speye_21@hotmail.com

Matt

---

Matt Lind
Animator / Technical Director
Softimage certified instructor:
Softimage|3D
Softimage|XSI
speye_21@hotmail.com

[gfxman]

Hi Everybody !
Many thx for your help, i'm going to try all your suggestions, to decide what fit best my needs.

But.... maybe i didn't explain me very well. I would like to animate the path, that describes the extrusion, in order to animate the extruded obj.

Moving points on the path, making keyframes, would be very nice and fast, don't you ? Maybe we can suggest, xsi team, to add this feauture

I'm going to try..stiiiiil learning

bye !

[ozz-2005]

In reply to:
Bonjour GfxMan,

As far as I know, you have 3 options to do what you want:

1. Animate the extrusion
The Extrude Along Curve operator offer several animation options. For example, in the Extrude Op ppg, go in the Transform tab and play with the parameters.

2. Shape animation
Another option is to do shape animation. To make this short, this technique consist of copying the original object, modifying the copies, then applying those modified shapes to the original. You can find a good tutorial on this here:
http://www.filmtecknarna.se/stefan/shape\_a...\_animation.html

3. Cluster center
Finally, if you want to manually animate several points, you can animate clusters. Tag any point you want to animate, then click on Cluster in the very bottom of the MCP (not the one next to the big arrow). This will create a cluster for your point. Next, create a null, and with the snap on point turned on, place this null onto the point that has a cluster.
Reselect your object, go in cluster mode (the Cluster button next to the big arrow), and do Model > Modify > Deform > Cluster Center. Pick the null. That's it! Now when you move the null, the point follows.

Hope this helps
Salutations - Cheers
Bernard Lebel

random thoughts. ( that i hope soft sees ):

i really hope Soft does something about having to define clusters before you do just about anything. i really think its counterproductive. i remember watching a video on XSI 2.0 and the person was defining the points that were going to be translated when a bone was going to be rotated. the whole procedure was about 6 steps when it could have been only 2 or 3. plus once you start getting complex rigs then keeping tracks of these clusters will be a major pain. im really liking what im seeying for the most part in softimage...but some things seem to be just implemented and not as much thought out as they could be. this whole shape changing thing seems to be pretty much the same case.. why cant a person just add a shape animation channel to the NLA, pic the shape that it will affect and let it roll. edit the shape..press key. nonto next keyframe. why define these points in teh first place..and assign to nulls..etc..?. why define these clusters? maybe in lost a little here...but i dont see the need.

also..what is the need to actually have to copy your object over when you want to make morph shapes?? just useless data if you ask me. why cant it just save the translated point data on top of the current mesh? /( for only teh points that are translated..) what am i saying here?
it would be nice if some of the current procedures in XSi were made transparent..and let the app do it on its own...but maybe still let the user manage it if need be?

also..jumping between these shapes quickly would be nice. for the whole shape..or for selected verts/edges/faces only...etc..

for example: when you rotate a bone and points translate..

rotate bone. edit shape, save the translation to the orientation. and thats it.

right now from what i seen in the video these are the steps: pick points, find the cluster create, to define the points that will translate, rotate bone, edit shape, save the translation to the orientation of bone. ( those first few steps could be gotten rid of )
hte problem with this is that you have to know before hand the exact points that will translate..
1/2 the time im clueless and i just want to keep on moving without having to pay attention to which pooints will get translated. ( often ill use magnets in there...so if i didnt define the clusters then the radius points will be excluded....not exactly what i want to happen.

____________
-M-K-
ambient-whisperEdited by ambient-whisper on 01/21/02 06:29:01 AM.

[character0]

quote
also..what is the need to actually have to copy your object over when you want to make morph shapes?? just useless data if you ask me. why cant it just save the translated point data on top of the current mesh? /( for only teh points that are translated..) what am i saying here?
it would be nice if some of the current procedures in XSi were made transparent..and let the app do it on its own...but maybe still let the user manage it if need be?
quote

Actually, this is how I started doing shape animation in XSI 1.0 beta. Way back when, before Stefan's tutorial on making copies of shapes. Personally, it's easier for me to make copies and be able to see the differences in shapes. But you don't have to make multiple copies.

Just select the object, Animate>Deform>Shape>Save Shape Key. Now goto the animation mixer, and with the object selected, hit update. Load in the key in a shape track. Now go back to the object and make you alterations, goto Animate>Deform>Shape>Store Shape Key. Load this into the shape track and you'll have the same sliders as with the multiple-object way. Now put that slider at "0" and then do your next alteration. Goto Animate>Deform>Shape>Store Shape Key. And load it into another shape track....repeat the procedure for as many shapes as you like.

and (maybe this is just my personal pref but) I like to know the points that will be moving with a joint, before I make them move. Yeah there are extra steps to go thru, to make opints animate to the bones, but I know it'd take me an extra 10 minutes to make a neutral shape, change it to the dformation, save, then load it up in the animation mixer and link it's slider to the rotation of said joint. Not that much more required.

hope this helps,

[geoath]

@@also..what is the need to actually have to copy your object over when you want to make morph shapes?? just useless data if you ask me. why cant it just save the translated point data on top of the current mesh? /( for only teh points that are translated..)@@

Hello ambient-whisper
U have the ability to do that in XSI without multiple copies of your object..

Select your object and save or store a shape key..if u store a shape key drag and drop it in the animation mixer..
Now select some points transform them as u want and store a shape key again..drop it in the animation mixer and set it's weight value to 0 so that u have the original shape again in order to continue with new morph shapes..continue with as many shapes as u want doing as before..

Now if u want ro edit a shape just do the following..
in the animation mixer set the weight value to 1 for the shape u want to edit and all the others to 0(to see clear the shape u r going to modify)..after u finish select that shape in the explorer at MIXER>SOURCES>SHAPE and then choose SHAPE>REPLACE SHAPE KEY..
This way u don't have to make multiple copies for shape targets and it's up to u which workflow u prefer..

@@for example: when you rotate a bone and points translate..

rotate bone. edit shape, save the translation to the orientation. and thats it.

right now from what i seen in the video these are the steps: pick points, find the cluster create, to define the points that will translate, rotate bone, edit shape, save the translation to the orientation of bone. ( those first few steps could be gotten rid of )
hte problem with this is that you have to know before hand the exact points that will translate..@@

I guess that u talk about muscle deformations depended on the bone's rotation..
Instead of using shapes with their weight value "linked" to a bone's rotation (that's in XSI1.5, in XSI2 i guess it's the workflow u wrote before)u can still use nulls as bones assigned to the envelope (u don't have to think about clusters ect),or make it even more advanced the way speye_21 wrote before..
Best regards
George

[ozz-2005]

yah sorry bout that..i just felt in a venting mood. anyway thanks for clearing it up.

but i have to ask. if you store those shapes into the animation mixer, does that mean its only meant for animation...and thats it? or can i use those stored shapes for texturing/uv setup reasons as well ? or would i have to do it using the copy object over method?

In reply to:Animate>Deform>Shape>Save Shape Key

too long. would be nice if there was one nice interface for this, ( setting shapes, going through them, editing, overwriting, organizing, etc ) without needing to ( Animate>Deform>Shape>Save Shape Key every time you want to set a shape key )"jump hoops" ( though you can make your own interface in XSi right? so i guess i could shut up now)

____________
-M-K-
ambient-whisper

[character0]

In reply to:
yah sorry bout that..i just felt in a venting mood. anyway thanks for clearing it up.

but i have to ask. if you store those shapes into the animation mixer, does that mean its only meant for animation...and thats it? or can i use those stored shapes for texturing/uv setup reasons as well ? or would i have to do it using the copy object over method?

[quote]
In reply to:Animate>Deform>Shape>Save Shape Key

[/quote]

too long. would be nice if there was one nice interface for this, ( setting shapes, going through them, editing, overwriting, organizing, etc ) without needing to ( Animate>Deform>Shape>Save Shape Key every time you want to set a shape key )"jump hoops" ( though you can make your own interface in XSi right? so i guess i could shut up now)

____________
-M-K-
ambient-whisper

what do you mean by using those shapes for texturing?

[ozz-2005]

well since im new to texturing myself, and want to avoid uv editors like the plague ( its tried em. and dun like em)
inside mirai i define parts so i can then hide what i dont need..etc. then i shape those parts, use marnet moves etc. and i save those shapes i usually name them the same as the actual part..so if i only make that part of the model visible then ill just use the morph by the same name. ( makes it easier for me )
( also, since i use magnets...then some parts around get deformed as well that i might not want..so its always important to update these morphs, and for parts that were finished i just select those verts and snap them back into shape. )

reason i do this in modeller is because it comes with more tools than uv editors do. and im just all around more comfortable in the modeller.
anyway so i shape my models and place them accordingly how they would look on the texture...and i snap the uvs onto the model, then i can just snap back to that shape and everything is just nice and dandy.

ive tried projection mapping and blending between them, but its just not what i like. because of the fact that id have to manage multiple textures that way. anyway..having a well thought out interface for shape managing already made is nice. one place to manage without the need to jump hoops from one editor...to another, just to do one task.

im not bragging by any means here. its just that izwares lifespan is questionable, and if i ever jump onto something new...it would be nice if it did things fairly similarly as they are done in my current app. so i hope you dont take offense from this.

____________
-M-K-
ambient-whisper

[geoath]

In reply to:
well since im new to texturing myself, and want to avoid uv editors like the plague ( its tried em. and dun like em)
inside mirai i define parts so i can then hide what i dont need..etc. then i shape those parts, use marnet moves etc. and i save those shapes i usually name them the same as the actual part..so if i only make that part of the model visible then ill just use the morph by the same name. ( makes it easier for me )
( also, since i use magnets...then some parts around get deformed as well that i might not want..so its always important to update these morphs, and for parts that were finished i just select those verts and snap them back into shape. )

reason i do this in modeller is because it comes with more tools than uv editors do. and im just all around more comfortable in the modeller.
anyway so i shape my models and place them accordingly how they would look on the texture...and i snap the uvs onto the model, then i can just snap back to that shape and everything is just nice and dandy.

ive tried projection mapping and blending between them, but its just not what i like. because of the fact that id have to manage multiple textures that way. anyway..having a well thought out interface for shape managing already made is nice. one place to manage without the need to jump hoops from one editor...to another, just to do one task.

im not bragging by any means here. its just that izwares lifespan is questionable, and if i ever jump onto something new...it would be nice if it did things fairly similarly as they are done in my current app. so i hope you dont take offense from this.____________
-M-K-
ambient-whisper

hi again ambient-whisper

i've read somewhere in the net about this way of texturing (maybe it was a link suggested in your site..i don't remember),it's a kind of "unwrap"..u deform part of your model in a planar way and then u can jump back to the original shape..(is this what u r talking about?..tell me if i'm wrong)
Anyway if u want something similar to this then u can try the texture editor in xsi..the workflow is nearly the same..
if u want take a look at www.finalgathering.com..there is a tutorial about the texture editor in xsi2.0..maybe it's what u want..(in my opinion it's less pain than working directly on your model)
By the way ,why should someone take offence of what u write?..it's cool that u search for things make your life easier..things that r less technical and more artistic..
If we'd rest in what we have we'd still live in the caves:)

Best regards
George
P.S:forgive me for my terrible english..

[ozz-2005]

In reply to:
hi again ambient-whisper

i've read somewhere in the net about this way of texturing (maybe it was a link suggested in your site..i don't remember),it's a kind of "unwrap"..u deform part of your model in a planar way and then u can jump back to the original shape..(is this what u r talking about?..tell me if i'm wrong)
Anyway if u want something similar to this then u can try the texture editor in xsi..the workflow is nearly the same..
if u want take a look at www.finalgathering.com..there is a tutorial about the texture editor in xsi2.0..maybe it's what u want..(in my opinion it's less pain than working directly on your model)
By the way ,why should someone take offence of what u write?..it's cool that u search for things make your life easier..things that r less technical and more artistic..
If we'd rest in what we have we'd still live in the caves:)

Best regards
George
P.S:forgive me for my terrible english..

nice tutorial. looks like its a fairly good texture editor. but what im doing is a little different. because i have to pose the model first, and then i take what i get in there..and i then paint the texture. in that link/tutorial the texture is pre-made. which causes for a little of a different workflow. because i have to pose the model to fit the texture...and not the model so i can paint.
im not sure if this is the tutorial that you are looking for...but this was written by my co-worker.
http://www.pointarena.com/tutorial/UV.htmlhttp://www.pointarena.com/tutorial/UV.html
its a bit lengthy, but i asked him to make it detailed so that i could follow it as well. ( it was after he left the job )
i also made a video( about 70 megs if you want of that process...( remember..still learning to texture here.)
in that video i setup the uvs for this characters goggles(i did a rather rough job if you ask me) ( err...goggles arent textured in that pic btw. ) going to work on that.............................. now.
later.

____________
-M-K-
ambient-whisper

[devdoka]

So bascially you're using modelling tools to define projection planes for your textures by snapping points/edges/faces to a common plane. Once this plane is established, a texture is projected onto the selected polygons. Well, you can do your technique in XSI (and faster) without having to resort to the modelling method you've concocted. XSI has what are known as "sub projections" which do basically the same thing but without having to physically deform the object.

A sub projection is a texture projection within a texture space that allows you to move a portion of the object's UV coordinates separately from the rest of the texture. These subprojections can be manipulated just like any other UV's and behave just like regular texture supports including the ability to scale/rotate/translate points on top of other UV edits.

Using the "sub projection" tools in the XSI Texture editor, you can align your body parts as you see fit onto a blank canvas - exactly the same way as in your tutorial. When finished, you can take a snapshot with the "Stamp UV Mesh" tool to burn the UV outlines from the Texture Editor interface into your texture image. The image can then be exported to your favorite paint software for painting.

Since the image is already to your object, every time you press the "Save" button in your paint software, XSI will immediately update the texture changes on your object. As an added bonus, you can layer multiple images into the texture editor and switch between (or blend using the ClipFX tools) in the OpenGL viewports at any time for cross-referencing.

Matt

---

Matt Lind
Animator / Technical Director
Softimage certified instructor:
Softimage|3D
Softimage|XSI
speye_21@hotmail.com

[ozz-2005]

yah that can be done in mirai as well ( see bay raitts video ) except you need to press revert on the texture to update if you are using an external 3d paint app.
also note that in that tutorial by my co-workder he never touched the actual uv editor., but its there if you need to ever fix up anything.

im not so much looking to swich apps because my current isnt doing its job..or doing it well.
right now its pretty much fulfilling just about all the needs i have. what im doing is researching on apps just incase i ever have to move on from my current one.

anyway. anyone want to make any videos of some of the texture/ or shape stuff on xsi?. id love to see them

____________
-M-K-
ambient-whisper

[gazzmills]

I hope this simple solution can help you, if you want to animate the points of your spline you can constraint each point in your curve to a null and then you can animate the nulls, be sure to get the nulls in the same place of each point before ypou make the constraint. this is a similar aproach to tah of speye, but since you asked how to animate the points of the extrusion spline this will do just that, hope this helps.

[oozoux]

Now that we have gone full circle and back to the problem of animating a few points on a curve without going thru the shapes, there is a little tool Called AddNullToPoints which allows you to automatically create Nulls that the selected points are constrained to. you can then animate away.

This tool was written before 2.0, so I might have to repackage it for 2.0 as a XSI Addon