Apple's intentions with Motion

[user_deleted]

I just recently picked up Motion, Apple's new motion graphics compositing package. I was surprised to find that despite it's candy raver interface, it actually is a pretty decent comp tool. It is very fast as it is the first of Apple's programs to use Core Video ( Core Video will be in the next release of osX, but for now, it just lives in Motion ) and has many tools I didn't think it would; a keyer, roto, the ability to circumvent the expression based presets and animate with keyframes and very a cool particle system. I'm wondering if Apple is going to start running into some of the same crippling problems that discreet has by having too many very similar products with a huge disparity in pricing. At first glance it seems someone could probably get away with getting Motion instead of Shake. There is only 1 keyer and no tracker, but does the absence of those tools, however fundamental, add up to a difference of $2700? It just seems weird...

jon a

[user_deleted]

I don't think so at the moment. both apps are aiming at very different usergroups. the lack of a tracker is one big point, the limitation to 8bit an even bigger one. maybe that will change in the future with graphiccards that can do more than 8bit, but at the moment, motion is in no way any competition for film work.

[admin]

I agree. I don't think there are many people or studios out there that have picked up Shake for simple comps. Motion is a great option for those who do motion graphics and need basic compositing without jumping into a complex package like Shake.

I think Apple is right on track with their direction and their production suite. Motion, Final Cut, Shake, DVD Studio and maybe Maya on the side is an awesome production studio in a box that can handle just about any need for a reasonable price. I don't think they are there yet, but certainly headed in the right direction. There are a lot of talks about g5's lacking network performance vs linux workstations. But it seems Apple is just getting started pushing this whole package forward with their hardware.

Will

[strikefreedom]

Currenttly using Motion alongside FCP and Shake, which I must admit I'm only a few months into using, and only for video res work. I primarily use an Avid DS for editing/compositing. Motion at first seems real cool, and it is very quick for slapping together several layers of material that are ready to go. But the built in effects and filters are pretty cheesy and low quality compared to what you might be accustomed to from 3rd party plugins that are going to cost more than the whole package. The particle gen is useful, very similar to Particle Illusion from Wondertouch, and some "behaviors" can be a time saver. What should really happen with Motion is complete integration into FCP somehow, to fix the huge weaknesses in that program. As for competition to Shake, I don't think you can ever compare a layer based system to the advantages of a tree compositor. Both Shake and Motion need improvements to their timeline capabilities. Overall, for my uses, the three packages together are very inefficient compared to the DS, but that's another story.

[user_deleted]

I'd be interested what you guys/gals think of the work being done on the open source Jahshaka Project. It's a free application in development intended when it's done to be a highend visual effects editor with motion graphics capability. The project seems to be heading in the direction of making the application a combination of what Apple Shake, Apple Motion and Discreet Smoke do well but in an all in one application. Any input you guys have please feel free to forward to the developers. Note: It runs on Linux, OSX, Windows 2000/XP Pro and Irix.

Screen shots:
http://www.jahshaka.com/features/graphics/jahlayout4.jpg
http://www.jahshaka.com/features/graphics/jahlayout5.jpg

Project site:
http://www.jahshaka.com/

[deke-kincaid]

I wish people who have never done compositing professionally would stop bringing up Jahshaka or any other open source app. (You do this a lot Dark Knight). It still lacks most of the fundamental tools in making it a usefull compositor. They have a while to go.

This is always an issue when the programmers for an open source app do not have a frame of reference for what they are creating. They are simply trying to emulate another app without actually knowing how people use a tool profressionally to make it work better.

[user_deleted]

Well thanks for making your feelings very clear. Everyone after all is entitled to their own opinion. Unfortunately I'm fairly sure you don't speak for everyone here or on behalf of the visual effects industry. I also don't know anyone named Deke so I'm fairly sure we haven't worked together. Which means you have no clue as to what software I or another member here uses extensively unless we point that out to you. Since we as artists work in a very competitive industry I've learned it's best to be as familiar with various software packages than just to limit myself to one. That is why I'm familiar with a variety of software (animation/compositing/editing/web design) as well as hardware/software installation/troubleshooting, etc but my main focus is 3D with Maya. Previous to Maya I used Power Animator. Anyway, I'm sure others will agree with me that there's nothing wrong with someone asking artists for their professional input on software whether commercial or open source. Especially considering that this site is a forum for asking questions related to software and it's use in the film, broadcast and games industry. Since the Jahshaka project developers appear to be creating something that would benefit artists/studios at zero cost to them and they are open to suggestions then this shouldn't offend you even though it's an open source project. Sorry but does that mean you believe studios that use open source software such as Cinepaint on projects are doing something wrong? Sorry but not all open source projects are bad. Oh by the way as I've pointed out before my brother is the one who works as a Lead Compositor/Sequence Supervisor at ILM and even I've asked him for his opinion on projects such as Jahshaka which he is not biased about. After all it may interest him or the studio he works for to either use later or contribute to it's development. Keeping an open mind even with software that is free should be something all artists strive to do.

[joojaa]

It is partialy true tough that open source progs rarely have a force behind them thats so inspirational that they have something new and innovative to offer. Mostly its just tring to implemant the latest fab, or failing that tooling up to introduce it in.

Im not saying its case for every app but it is for many of them... Sinc there are succes stories.

Usualy a single individual, can release something small but groundbreaking. A community on the otherhand usualy tries to builld it all in, without a great general plan on what is simply unneccesery in this porduct, even tough others have it this wont because it does not need to etc etc.

Some people se open source a s a golden happy happy land i dont. Would you want to contribute yoyr greatest ever grounbreaking earthshattering idea to a open source project, i think not. So while theres name to be surely gotten there, youll get e better neame if you puglish your own app first.

Thats said theres certainly a host of benefits form having open source stuff for the normal mudane things.

Onlysome open source projects allways seem to have something in the fix at all time, never reaching any usable levell of stability. And some are superstable because thets what they were built for.

To sum it up: Sometimes it just a mess that theres too meny people pulling strings. But for some tasks it beneficial.

So dont hype untill it is realy there untill then its just one of those promises that may never come true. Being open source is far from being great, its just their goal not all make it. Theres far too much hate for microsoft and far too much idelogical zealosnes for open source stuff.

(not that i like microsoft anymor than i like my toaster manufacturer)

[joojaa]

Has anyone actualy noticed that maya is actualy a super good aplication for all those rotospline jobs... espeacialy unlimitted.

You can even use maya as a comp app with a LOT of free rendernodes that arent mac dependant, if it so happens your not doing 3d renders at the time.

[deke-kincaid]

I apologize for being a little harsh (note to self, don't answer a post when you first wake up). Its just that everytime someone posts something asking about some software package or operating system you always chime in with your offtopic "use this open source software" comment. Linux this, linux that, open source this, blah blah. I personally use many opensource packages. I use linux all the time too (gentoo, which is one of the most hardcore linux's next to debian and slackware).

And yes I do know you brother works for ILM, that little chime in name dropping comment is also getting very old. Good for you, my brother is an electrician but I don't go around pushing my opinion on other electrical professionals about what I think they should be using for tools just because I do a little electrical work on the side.

I love linux and I love opensource but please stop being so preachy and changing the topic of posts to suit your inner need to spread the opensource and linux religion.

[deke-kincaid]

Back to the original post.

Motion is just missing way too many tools for full on compositing mainly because it is a motion graphics tool and not a compositor. As you and other people mentioned:
Slimed down version of Primatte
no tracker
8 bit color space.

Also you have a whole slew of other missing features:
no support for cineon/log color space
warper/morpher
scripting based/commandline features
expressions
zdepth

and most important, it is not node based but linear like AE.