BFA(Academy of Art) vs Certificate(gnomon/fulsail)

[azryth]

To a lot, this may seem like a stupid question; and it would be for me just a few months ago. I am currently a student at the AAC in san francisco, and starting to realize all these other "smaller" schools like Gnomon and Fullsail are very much comparable from what I've seen out of their student work. Not only that, but they are less than half the price... My question is for people who know the job market... how rough is it for a person with a screamin' demo reel out of a certificate school to get a job? Is a BFA worth the extra(extra, extra, extra, extra) cash?

[jordan-mcgehee]

Well im only in high school and currently looking at the Academy of Art, but from what I herd is that these small schools like Gnomon and Full Sail are a lot worse than schools like Academy of Art.

Just look at the facts: What would you rather tell an employer? That you have a certificate or a degree? Or that you took the fast way and went to Full Sail for a year or went to Academy of Art for a full 4 years.

There is no way a certificate program (Full Sail) is better than a degree program (Academy), you just cant learn all the stuff that you would learn in 4 years and cram it all down into 1 year.

PS: Hows Academy of Art going? Im Looking for schools to go to right now and Academy is my #1 choice. Im even going to there summer program this cumming summer.

[azryth]

It's cool m8, but the first 2 years are 90% foundation classes(charcoal figure drawing, english, perspective drawing, etc) and believe me, for tech nerd 3d junkies like us it can be quite tortuous at times.

But back to my question: I do realize the diff between a certificate and a 4-year degree... and ya it does sound dumb right off the bat, but when you get here you'll see that all anyone talks about is demo reel, demo reel, demo reel, demo reel! Also, I wouldnt even be considering anything like this if it wasnt for the actual work that DOES come out of those certificate schools. The school doesnt give degrees, but sweet jeesus if you look at the work its seriously dope.

So anyways, I just wanna know for SURE that I'm not paying all this money if I can get an admirable education at a less expensive certificate school.

(p.s. where you from, beta999?)

[itye2005]

Beta999, what matters the most is if you can do what your employer is expected of you. Whether you have an Associate of Science degree, Bachelor's Degree, or Masters Degree. They look at your demo reel first, and if that catches their eye then they look at your resume. If you were an employer looking for a modeller which would you rather hire, a person that has exceptional modelling skills but has no four year degree or someone that has ok modelling skills with a Masters? In this industry 2 year and 4 year degrees don't matter as much as others. I'm not saying that there's no one that looks at your degree, what I'm saying is that what they look at more is your work and job experience.

I, myself, am a Full Sail student. If you think that you can't learn from this school as much as you can from a 4 year then you're greatly mistakened. Why is it impossible learn all the stuff from a 4 year college in a 15 month course? Are you comparing the length of time? Yeah, 4 years is quite a bit longer than 1 year but you're looking at the length of time of which your education is expanded to, you're not looking at the amount of in-school hours you receive. FS might be 1 year but you also get the same amount of in-school hours as you would get in a typical 4 year college. Throughout this year you're constantly hammered with projects of which are due at the end of each month. For at least 5 days a week you have lectures of which are followed by labs later on that day. These labs are where you learn the most. Typically, each week you're in school for about 40 hours (not including open labs). Granted, 15 months is quite a short amount of time to learn how to model, rig, texture, animate, composite, and edit but afterwards you will have a good understanding to do all of those things... that is if you apply yourself. It is possible to graduate this school half assed, but if you do then you have no reason to be in this industry. I have met some people with Bachelor's and Master's degrees in this school, people saying they learned squat in the previous schools they've gone to.

I do have a few complaints about the school. The school, I think, IS a bit short. It is possible to learn a lot within a year, but I think it the information would soak in more if it were 2 years (with the same scheduling).

As for Azryth, getting a job in the industry depends on the quality of your work. I can't give you much advice on which school would be best to go to, you'll just have to research some more. Try asking people that have gone to the schools you're looking at and hear their opinion. You can learn as much being in a 2 year as a 4 year or having no education at all, it depends on how you apply yourself. It is nice to have a bachelor's degree posted on your resume, but don't think that that's the only way you'll get a job.

PS: Those "foundation" classes can help you a lot in 3D. It'll give you a better understanding on shading, lighting, as well as comparison in sizes, human figures, etc. It was quite torturous for me as well, and I'm still not that great at two dimentional drawing, but it has definitely helped me perceive things differently.

[jtk77]

IF you go to a university and get a degree. I really beleiveyou need to get it in something other than 3d or art.
You can minor in graphics or take some side classes. I'd definitly get an engeering, like structual or design engeneering, or programming degree with a minor in computer graphics. YOu can land a whole range of great jobs with that and make serious cash.
YOu can get into film, games, design, ect with engeerning and graphics degrees.
Otherwise, yea a Full Sail or Gnomon is fine. A 4 year art degree I have seen , has a lot of wasted time except for being albe to work on your own for a longer period on personal projects.

[azryth]

So far you guys are saying exactly the same things I have began to realize. Thank you so much for your input, its really helping me out here, this decision is so frickin tough. Another question, would it be at all possible to work in the industry, and go to school at the same time, or is that out of the question?

[joojaa]

Ok ofcourse the look at your demo reel! But what if you had 2 good candidates and the other had a masters degree in eingeneering and the other came straight frm full sail.

Who do you think gets the job! I mean the masters degree tells to them that hey this guy knows even other stuff thet can be valuable to us in the furture. Even if full sail says hes gott a goal i must say. Besides the point is not to put all your eggs in one basket!

[richard-sher]

I went to a liberal arts school and then to a Full Sail style school. (I.E. Art school.) I believe that this offers "the best of both worlds." Here is my take on it....

I think that the really big benefit of attending a liberal arts school first is that you learn "art" while you are there. (You learn what looks good and what doesn't and how to create it yourself.) Then when you go to an art school you can hit the ground running. Since you are already "artistic" much of your learning there will be technical.

I've seen so many people with no artistic talent step into an art school and either fail to perform well enough to pass/get a job or struggle very, very hard to learn art, animation and software all at the same time. While the people with previous art experience fly through the program, get much more out of it and end up with way better demo reels. Of course there are many people that "are born artistic" that can skip the liberal arts school experience and still perform exceptionally well in an art school. (but this happens less often than more.)

In the end you need to decide what type of person you are and choose the path that is right for you.

[azryth]

These are all good points, and they are all what I figured... but one thing still frightens me if I continue on with my degree. And that is... I wont be ready for the job for another 4+ years! Whereas with a certificate school, I would be ready(hopefully) in 18-months. This is frightening because I look at how the industry has changed since 4 years ago; and it seems like just way too long a time to be in the womb.

This brings me to another thing I've thought... In the 2.5 years that I would still be in school getting a degree, I "could" be already working, gaining the priceless on-job experience. So, you can see why I am so serious about considering this as an option, and why this decision is eating me alive!

You have no idea how determined and dedicated I am about this field of study, this is the reason I sat in my room playing games and learning software in high-school, it was all I thought about, and all I daydreamed about, there is absolutely nothing I want more right now than to just be able to live this out as a profession. GAWD I want this so bad!!!

[jviasterofchaos]

Here's a true story that may give you a different perspective on your question, which I interpreted as "why in the hell should I take all this art stuff?"

A while back at one of the larger Bay Area studios there were two guys, both doing entry level grunt work, which we all have to do at the start. Fast forward a few years and guy #1 is still basically doing grunt work. All right, he's a "team leader" now, but he stills sits at his computer 12-14 hours a day working on the same character or 3 second dialogue clip for weeks, even months, on end. What is guy #2 doing? He's the Technical Director of the project and basically telling guy #1 what to do, and, not to mention, making about 3 times more. They were both technically proficient. As a matter of fact, guy #1 can pretty much do anything with a computer. What was the real difference between the two? Guy #2 has a great art background! So now he's doing the fun, not to mention real creative work, where as guy #1, the technical master, is doing what he does best....sitting at his computer 12-14 hours a day working on the same character, or 3 second dialogue clip, for weeks, even months, on end. The point is, you'll get farther, and a lot faster, if you develop your artistic skills in addition to your technical. So what if some guy from Full Sail has a better demo reel then you? There's always going to be someone with one that's better. But as long as yours demonstrates a solid, fundamental understanding of the basic concepts of animation, modeling, whatever your field, and it shows in your demo reel, that tells the studio that you have a proficient understanding of the technology and basic concepts and so can be taught the interface of whatever package they're using. Next, they look at your portfolio of fine art work, if you have one, and in a lot of cases you're required to present one. So whom do you think they'll hire in the end? The guy with the kick ass demo reel and portfolio filled with stick figure drawings (or, God forbid, none at all!) or you, someone with a solid demo reel and kick ass drawings! Ask people that actually hire animators and I guarantee that 99.9% of the time they're going to take the person with the best art skills.

And no, I'm not saying that you can't get a job without an art background. Obviously, that's not the case. But as this industry evolves, and it's still in it's infancy, the focus on the tech side will diminish as user interfaces become more simplified (just like with photoshop and illustrator. When they first arrived on the scene you had to be a frigging computer genius to work those things, now my 5 year old niece can do amazing things just playing around) which starts to open them up to a lower common denominator as far as a required set of technical skills, then a shift starts to take place in what the studios are looking for. It's happening already. Slowly but surely there's more and more emphasis being placed on a job candidates artistic background and skills. The tech stuff the studio can teach you as long as you have a certain level of aptitude and understanding of the subject, but they can't, and don't want, to teach a bunch of animators how to draw so that their characters don't look like cut outs from SouthPark.

Does that make sense to you? I know it's hard to decide what to study because there's so much out there and so many different opinions. What you have to do is try and look long term, at where the industry is going, not where it's at at this particular point in time, and try and prepare for what's ahead. Good luck and I would stick with AAC. Not only do you get excellent technical training, but they do place just as much emphasis, if not more, on the art side, which you're well aware of. But the real strength of the program, in my opinion, are the instructors. At least in the MPT and CA programs. Not only are they very knowledgeable about their particular areas of expertise, but most of them are pretty well connected in the industry and can help you down the road. That is, of course, if you do well and manage to impress one of them with your work. So view it as an easy way to network, in addition to learn. Having both will make your life a lot easier down the road. Good Luck, and no, I'm neither a student or employee of the AAC so my opinion is not biased towards them. I've just had good experiences with the people they produce.

[orainteam]

In reply to zeeker:

Are you saying that the artistic value of cg is less than that of traditional art? I mean, if you have a kick as demo reel with figures with perfect proportions and great lighting, shading, texture, etc, is this worth less than having the same in traditional art techniques (drawing, sculpting, etc)?

I'm just a novice hobbyist so I don't know anything about the industry, but I would like to think that the medium you're using doesn't matter as long as you show off your artistic proficiency, be it cg, drawing, sculpting or whatever.

• Henrik (who plans to take a couple of art classes in the near future for fun.)

[joojaa]

Well all art skills are kindof related. So if you are a good 3d artist then you should in all likelyhood be a pretty good at drawing painting etc (because they are after all skills that can be taught toa anyone!). If not then you have neglected something fundamental!

But the fact that you can something doesent mean you cant learn more. So the traditional art skills teach you, how to use techniques at your diposal. I mean drawing is pretty essential way of communicating anything graphic!

[donlightfoot]

Let's not forget that it's a lot easier to obtain a visa oversea if you hold a BFA than a certificate. If you plan on working abroad a university degree will help a lot!

[lalalahk]

I guess maybe this is going to be a little bit of an echo...but I basically did the same thing as Ed. I went to a four year liberal art school and got a BFA in painting and drawing...I also kept up with what was happening in the CG world, I just didn't really do much after playing around with POV-Raytrace and Caligari TrueSpace back in highschool. Now I'm going to Full Sail, for Computer Animation and honestly, I'm glad I went to a four year school first. That's not to say that Full Sail doesn't have alot to teach me. The two are just very different animals, and I think the best is some combination of the two. In my humble opinion, 14 months is not enough time to develop a mature aesthetic sense...and alot of the kids have underestimated the importance of traditional art skills....You're gonna have a hard time coming up with and modelling a cool creature if you can't draw it. I think it's maybe even doubly important for texture artists. It's not neccessarily even about the skills, but having an artists eye and mind. I've been to a couple of the demo reel presentations for the graduating Computer Animation classes, and you can really tell who the creative people are and who just knows the program really well. They were all very well executed, but some of them were really pretty bland as far as concept.

I guess it really just boils down to what you want to do and how much work you're will to do inorder to get there (like everyone else said!) My opinion, is that fresh outta highschool, you should go to a 4 year art school that offers a BA or BFA in Computer Animation...of course I haven't graduated yet, so I really don't know what the "industry" prefers, that was just my moderatly educated opinion.