Disappointed at all?

[nouvelleorleans]

First of all, happy to be first.

I'm now in 3.9 and just ready to take a step forward.
I read almost all the post in XSI is something negatives.

To all who's tried XSI: Is just Rendering remains in XSI, now?

[burtyron]

I'm not sure I understand your question, but I LOVE rendering with XSI, the new lighting, rendering and shading tools are fantastic, and IPR is a joke next to XSI's interactive rendering and viewing.

[jtk77]

so far the rnedering and lighting is the most impressive thing about XSI , but if you're a house whos invested a lot in Renderman and will continue using it then its not a very big point. Speaking of Renderman , how does XSI port to it ? anyone know yet, tried it?

Ran out of fun stuff to say....

[nouvelleorleans]

so sorry about my english..(i try my best)
disappointing, not disappointed.
i extensively use Soft up to 3.9 and just waiting for jump to XSI. I'm just wondering why almost all the post here tend to put XSI as 'disappointing at all'.

I havent tried renderman yet, but i love the mental ray as the best rendering tools in term of its integration with the software. There's render tree and region preview etc. as i use it in Twister to explore all the shaders ad got a realtime feedback.

There's Softman to port the scene to renderman, but i don't know how good its integrity with Softimage. I heard 3dsMax has Maxman too, but it's still hard to optimize because the limited integation with the software. The pros in Hollywood have complete, specialisation-based department, and mature systems so they can switch the process in many packages.

With your experince using Renderman as separate renderer, is there any problem or limitation to make it optimal? thats my first consideration (and budget, of course)to invest on renderman. Any idea?

[jtk77]

The real power in Renderman is the programmer who uses it . If you're not up to hiring someone or know C++ well ( and have the time to then learn renderman code based on that )then I wouldn't . I'd be a waste. Just from demos and freinds it seems going from Maya to Renderman can be extremely easy with not much work, or problems, in the convertion. So thats a plus,didn't knwo how XSI handles it. Who knows what will happen in a year, mental ray is a great renderer.
I just would also like to say I'm not a renderman user so I may be totally off base. By the way I used to use Softimage almost completely until a school was attending got the Maya 1.0 beta . I just love the workflow , I don't know if its worth taking a look to go back (so far the posts have made me wonder ), I'm not sure how many others feel the same way by now, that may be why you've seen disapointment on a page that used to be full of Softimage fans 2 years ago.

Ran out of fun stuff to say....

[lisaw]

You're right, there's a lot of negativity on this forum, which I think is disapointing. It's been released officially for what, 5 days and everyone's jumping in with an informed opinion? I've been working with XSI since the very first beta, what, 18 months ago (Gordon??) and I've come to like it very much. The work flow is good and solid, the GUI carefully considered and easy to use, the render preview is as fast as they say and the Rendertree is just to die for. Everyone's to their own taste but laying into this product after only a short peridod? Let's try and be a bit more objective here, shall we? Remember what they were saying about Maya when it first came out, after being how late?

Oh, and in answer to your question, no it's not just rendering in XSI.

[jtk77]

Yea , there were a lot of problems with maya when it first came out . The issue is why switch now ? Maybe by XSI version 3 then huh, does AVID have enough money to weight for 3 more years till it has a user base? Especailly with Max getting more andvanced for a fraction of the cost, and Mya already with a good lead in production houses. I think the reason for most of the negativity is a lot of people kept weighting and weighting . Not going to Maya , missing the 'industry boat' if you would to only get a product not meeting the expectations of what the demo guys have been spouting for over 2 years. And with the 'change the face of 3d' and '3d revolution ' ad campaine-- I just don't see it, and I'm not sure anyone else does right now either. I think AVID may have hyped too much for what we're seeing in it. Agian , I have yet to use it . This is going by hands-on demos and online demos. This is just what I've heard and seen a little of.
As far as maya being how late, at least they didn't set up an entire booth and big hoopla at every major event over 2 years before it was acually out. Alias reps talked about it but at least you KNEW it was still being finished and not to weight on it. The way the Softimage people toted it, you thought it was right around the corner. We all know that turned out to be false. So there ya have it, unfortunitly this forum does reprasent a good amount of industry people and soon to be industry people. If you can't get a fair shake here, then where? I'm sure it will see , places use everything. Just tring to figure out what its stronge points are in relation to other software.

Ran out of fun stuff to say....

[lib]

Hi - it's fair to be annoyed, as we were indeed late, and did not meet up to customer expectations in terms of shipping when we claimed. We hope we can make up for that now, and regain your trust.

You say : "Agian , I have yet to use it . This is going by hands-on demos and online demos. This is just what I've heard and seen a little of."

There are many people, including Kim, who are talented production people, and who have been using it for a considerable time, so I urge you to sit down and have a play if you can in order to best come to your conclusions rather than basing your summary on what you might have seen in demo etc... Maybe you'll like it, maybe you'll hate it, but at least you'll have the evidence at your disposal to reach a conclusion, positive or negative, and if you can pass on your thoughts, comments, complains, suggestions, that would be much appreciated too.

If you have specific questions about bits and pieces, I can try and help with info (particularly with regards animation). I won't get into Alias vs. Soft why-to-transition-your-pipeline discussions, however, as I have the upmost respect for the folks in Toronto.

-g.

P.S. BTW checkout 3ddesign mag for a review which may give you some more objective info on what's in there. Extracts are also at http://www.mesmer.com/docs/content/referen.../xsi\_intro.html

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Project Leader, Animation - SOFTIMAGE

[nouvelleorleans]

i think our discussion is going to point the same positive thing. I'm just happy for many pros to contribute in this forum. It's good to keep the objectivity always in balance.
Thanks.

[charge]

Hmmmm..........yes gocam

I know that you're not going to compare A|W and XSI, neither do I.

But, can i give u suggestion ? I think that everybody know that A|W and XSi are compete with each other right now. You can't avoid it even you say we don't. So many people prefer using Maya because it provides solution for animators in making cloth, feather (fur), and alot more stuff. XSI has become user friendly, that's great. But still XSI doesn't provide any solution for hair either cloth. This is what makes animators frustated most of the times. When Maya 2 Unlimitted released with their feature Maya Cloth, Live, Fur, etc. Most of the animators start using it because it provides and solves the most frustating problems. And.......you know..yeah, most of the animators shifted to Maya. So...what do you think ? I'm not trying to give u and advice. I'm trying to explain what makes Animators did that (prefer Maya rather than SI). XSI had released, and most of the people said that it has improved a lot and totally different from the previous version SI 3.9. Good. Are sure it will beat Maya 3 ? I'm sure you can do that.

[lib]

You say "I know that you're not going to compare A|W and XSI, neither do I." and then you go on to do precisely that (which is fine, don't get me wrong).

You also say that "But, can i give u suggestion ? ", and then "? I'm not trying to give u and advice". I'm not clear what your suggestion is, or how you expect me to reply with any information that could be useful. I'm aware of the state of the industry, that Maya is a mature and powerful package. I hope that people will feel likewise about XSI and see the tools we designed and developed for animators, modelers and renderfolks that are there that are _not_ in competing packages, in the same way as you note things in Maya not currently in XSI.

Really - that's all I can say. We believe we have gone further than our competitors in several areas, and I acknowledge that in other areas we have not. It's up to people to decide if they want to try out XSI and make up their own decisions, as nobody is going to listen to me (an employee from Softimage) and take what I say at face value !

Will it beat Maya3 (still in beta)? That's not for me to say, as I've only seen betas, and we are ourself working on the next version(s) of XSI. I see that with Maya3 they are most definitely (despite what you may read in Computer Arts following our lead in some areas (NLA) and are introducing some nice new tools. It'll be a fun SIGGRAPH. But, again, if you need to make decisions about software, try and get a hands-on so you can come to your own conclusions.
-gordon

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Project Leader, Animation - SOFTIMAGE

[burtyron]

As someone who actually HAS (yes!) the software, all I can say is that I have used Maya and now XSI, and both have their strengths. Hair and cloth, I don't really care. I have (courtesy of soft) a fine cloth simulator right here. Plus, any pro cares more about the bread-and-butter functionality than the glitz, no? I want a great app, I can make my own hair.

[burtyron]

Any comparisons made should be on existing packages, I still haven't seen 3.0, nor have I seen the next XSI service pack.

I will say that I'm very impressed and pleased with XSI and have done a few things already that I've not seen any other package do as well. XSI looks strong to me.

[fredc]

I was on the original Beta program for XSI (Sumatra) but switched jobs before I had a chance to really use it much. I neglected to sign up again and hadn't touched it until today...We'll all I can say is WOW!!!

I didn't expect to like it so much so soon, but I love it already. Now everyone can go back to speculating.

Urp

[charge]

Yes, exactly...........we've to decide our own conclusion which one we're going to use. You're 100% right.

Yes, i believe too that you've gone further for some 3D competitors.

And i have use XSI (yesterday). I'm glad that XSI has been more user friendly than the previous version (this is what i'm waiting for). I like that. A lot of a new tools. especially in deformation. .

As Matix said "Both of them have their strength". That's true. It's not fair if i keep talking about lacking modeling tools in previous version of SoftImage. Until XSI came out (as i used yesterday). WOW ! i think you've regain my trust again in SOFTIMAGE. Thanks gordon. I hope that you can improve it more in the next version. (interesting....gtg...)

Charge

[blacksun]

Firstly, let's remind ourselves that MAX is no longer a fration of the cost - especially when you factor in Mental Ray.

It amazes me how so many people can make so many judgements of XSI without so much as a look at the product. I've been beta testing this baby since beta 1.0 and the more I use it, the more it amazes me. It's workflow alone is way way quicker than Maya's. It's rendering is superior by a mile (and let's rleave Renderman out of this seeing as a single render license of PRman costs as much as the 3D app itself).

Secondly, the most significant aspect of 1.0 is what you don't see - the architecture. There's stuff under the hood just waiting to pop out.

Finally, it's a fact that all software goes in cycles. Yes, Maya has a lot of momentumn, but a lot can happen. A|W is going to be floated after SIGGRAPH and we all know what pain restructuring/aquisitions/mergers inflict on a company. Secondly, Softimage has a lot up it's sleave that you haven't even heard of yet. If the features of XSI 1.0 are enough to challenge Maya 2.5, then XSI 1.1/1.5 will be formidable.

[blacksun]

I think Charge makes some very salient points. Things like Cloth and Fur have always posed a significant problem for 3D and Maya offered pertty good solutions to both. I think it's true to say that this did force Soft animators to have to look elsewhere when they had no other choice.I am more than confident that Softimage's offering with be equal to, if not superior to Maya's offering.

Until XSI's version of these products comes out, it needs to be stated that XSI 1.0 has offered features which are going to speed up the production pipeline, what's more they are features that are going to benefit animators on an everyday basis, as opposed to the occasional niche filled by cloth and fur.

I spoke to a group of animators from a leading effects house recently and they commented about time savings that will result from the render passes in XSI. BTW Maya 3.0 is offering a version which is as good as useless. Anyway, these animators commented that this feature alone is going to save them 30% of their time - add that up and you have a cost saving which is impossible to ignore.

The NLA is another feature which will cut down repetitive tasks, not to mention features like the awesome new IK or the animatable constraints. Not as flashy as Paint FX but much more practical in every day tasks.

No one is denying that the modelling is below expectation in 1.0, but it must be stated that what we can expect to see will be equivalent to anything served up by Maya. The new NURBS library alone is equal to that owned by A|W so there is no reason why the tools won't be.

[geoffcrowther]

does xsi come with a scanline render mode a la renderman?

if not, lets just pray and hope they offer a scanline type render feature. that will save time even more.

radiosity/raytracing is as niche as mayas fur and cloth plugins.

"...yes, i'm good looking AND smart!"

[geoffcrowther]

does xsi have a scanline render mode like renderman? is it fast?

if not, would the separate render passes equal rendertimes of scanline renderers like rman?

"...yes, i'm good looking AND smart!"

[lib]

in brief - scanline and raytracing methods are both a feature of mental ray. you can use either, or both. (p57 rendering manual)

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Project Leader, Animation - SOFTIMAGE