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G5 64 bit !

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contrabazista 2003-08-30 14:14:54 UTC #1

so I was at the local apple store and there was g5 with a 64 bit IBM processor. I never really liked apple but 64 bit ?? so does any one has any Ideas on that? are there any use right now in 3d for 64 bit? and what does it really mean 64 bit. thay say its many many times faster . any one has any ides?
later
yury

user_deleted 2003-09-02 14:25:21 UTC #2

More processing power, more bandwidth and RAM capabilities, etc. Just to point out there has been 64 bit OS long before Apple created the G5 and that is Linux which is free to download. You also have the choice of which hardware you use (AMD Opteron or Intel Itanium). Both Tyan and MSI now sell dual AMD Opteron motherboards. Each board comes with RAID support and built in Firewire.

As for applications taking advantage of it time will tell. Right now Maya and XSI are not offered in 64 bit but I know the AMD Opteron will allow you to install those apps because the CPU is backwards compatible with 32 bit.

Don't always believe the hype created by a manufacturers advertising. All tests shown by Apple are against desktop not workstation Intel and AMD processors. I would wait to see comparitive tests against dual Intel Itanium or AMD Opteron processors before making a purchase decision.

Another note is that you have a variety of Linux 64 bit choices or you could install Windows XP 64 bit but with Apple you are stuck with mostly their hardware and their OS.

jtk77 2003-09-02 17:01:27 UTC #3

yea 64 bit, but it won't work till the os gets there as well as all your fav. apps.
Its a nice step in the right way perhaps. Who knows, we'll all wait and see. When they have a 64 bit Ibook, I'd me impressed.

nuabudikae 2003-09-03 00:35:54 UTC #4

As for applications taking advantage of it time will tell. Right now Maya and XSI are not offered in 64 bit but I know the AMD Opteron will allow you to install those apps because the CPU is backwards compatible with 32 bit.<<

Yes i'm curious to see when apps start supporting 64bit hardware and software.

Don't always believe the hype created by a manufacturers advertising. All tests shown by Apple are against desktop not workstation Intel and AMD processors. I would wait to see comparitive tests against dual Intel Itanium or AMD Opteron processors before making a purchase decision.<<

Did you see Apple's booth at SIGGRAPH? They had a beta of RenderMan running on a dual Xeon 2.8ghz box with Intel's own ICC compiler versus the new dual G5 with GCC compiler. They were rendering a frame from Finding Nemo and the G5 rendered the frame 30 seconds faster. Just wait a year from now once the G6 is out (according to IBM's time frame) and software is OPTIMIZED at both the OS and software level. Apple is commited to bringing 64bit computing to the masses.

Another note is that you have a variety of Linux 64 bit choices or you could install Windows XP 64 bit but with Apple you are stuck with mostly their hardware and their OS. <<

WinXP 64 is currently in BETA at best. You cannot pick it up yet commercially. There is no definite time frame for XP on A64 yet either. Linux IS A64 aware but what apps are you going to run on it?

SUN and SGI started out moving their hardware over to 64bit back in the 90's. Now it is Apple's turn to do so and to transition the OS to 64bit where it makes sense to as well.

The biggest benefit for 64bit computing today for people like you and i is additional memory addressing. Apps will be able to grab more than 1.5 or 2 gigs of ram and chug away under the new G5 and A64 (assuming your running Linux). The additional ram translates to better performance because that way your computer doesn't have to shift what is in ram over to your hard drive to make room for the additonal code they need to load to work out whatever operation your running. Intense geometry and more than anything for the 3d realm i would imagine the RENDERING piece is most important.

Virgina Tech ordered 1100 new dual 2ghz Apple G5's for an intense clustering project. They are projecting that once it is finished it will be one of the Top 5 SuperComputer clusters in the world. Apple is making good moves and is growing again.

My .02

contrabazista 2003-09-03 13:06:42 UTC #5

so there is no way to render at 64 bit at this time .?
I am fine with the way maya runs right now. but the rendering could be faster.

user_deleted 2003-09-03 16:09:02 UTC #6

I can see you love Apple and sorry if anything I wrote offended you Understand I encourage any company to expand their horizons with new ideas (R & D).

It's a consumer beware market. All I was trying to say is that consumers should look at other companies to do some comparison shopping. That's a little hard if you are an Apple user since all your software only runs on Apple. There are other comapnies selling 64 bit machines for 3D animation and for professional editing. The problem I really see is that the OS and hardware are now available to the consumer for 64 bit computing but the software companies are still behind in development. I still can't get a definate release date for a 64 bit Maya from Alias and I'm sure the XSI community must be asking the same question.

I presume that the Apple G5 processors are similar to the AMD Opteron that can handle both 64 bit and 32 bit applications. Consumers can now purchase these powerful machines but with out 64 bit software how do you really test it's performance with applications that are still 32 bit?

As for Windows XP 64-bit being in beta, you are right you cannot purchase just the OS but you can purchase a turn key system from Hewlett Packard.

http://www.hp.com/workstations/itanium/index.html

The G5 currently sells between $1999.00 to $2,999.00 (US) but have you checked other comapnies such as Boxx Technologies or Angstrom?

http://www.boxxtech.com/swf/index.asp

http://www.angstrom.com/products/titan64\_dual.htm

As for the Freelancer who already has a workstation it may be of benefit to upgrade the motherboard, CPU and RAM to cut costs. ASUS, MSI and TYAN sell AMD Opteron motherboards.

ruddy 2003-09-03 22:51:27 UTC #7

"Tools don't make artists but is the artist's imagination that sparks creativity"

huh?

1000101- 2003-09-04 01:21:47 UTC #8

He's saying that just because an artist has the greatest tools in the world ; that it won't nessasarily make him a good artist. That creativity stems from imagination and not a brush or a piece of software.

user_deleted 2003-09-04 04:05:07 UTC #9

Exactly. I edited my personal quote due to some confusion it caused to those not so enlightend

ruddy 2003-09-04 19:12:39 UTC #10

One man's enlightenment is another man's self dillusion.
Enlightened or not, i hope you edited your personal quote because it was gramatically flawed, not because idiots like me couldn't devined your artsy meaning.

desertboy

joojaa 2003-09-05 09:05:10 UTC #11

Ok so tools dont make an artist but even the guy with best imaginations wont do anything if he cant use even the simplest tools.

So in reality itis tools dont make an artist... however if you cant use any tools odds are no one will se your work!

aaron_johnson 2003-09-05 21:42:29 UTC #12

note: a 32 bit app running on 64bit OS with AMD64 will still not be able to access more than 1.5 GB ram.

first look at windowsXP-64 here, reviewed at GamePC:
http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view\_content.as...64xp&page=1

first reviews look pretty good and stable as far as compatability goes.

user_deleted 2003-09-06 04:01:24 UTC #13

RE:>>>Ok so tools dont make an artist but even the guy with best imaginations wont do anything if he cant use even the simplest tools.

So in reality itis tools dont make an artist... however if you cant use any tools odds are no one will se your work!<<<

Still don't understand why some of you feel offended by my personal quote? At 32 years of age I have seen many things but one thing has stuck with me and that is art. I have been drawing since I could first pick up a pencil and have placed both my creative mind and natural talent to good use by learning animation/fx software. I believe that no one should try to start at the top of a ladder in life or expect to get anywhere in this industry with out some form of natural creative talent. Sure teachers can teach you to use the tools but they can't give you a creative mind. That is something you are almost born with and learn to expand in your early years of life. I have seen to many people with certificates or diplomas from animation schools that completely suck at animation. In reality the fault is with the education system not being honest with an individual and instead wanting to fill another seat with a dollar value.

I guess some people can not face reality or take criticism. As dear old mom has said "If you can't take the heat then get of of the fire".

joojaa 2003-09-06 13:51:52 UTC #14

Its not an attack agains you its justa comment on realities of fact Many many people have or atleast think they have a good imagination.

Yes i agree many educated users absolutely suck so what even more non educated people do!

Bottom line is dont take anyones sayso take their input for what it is be it animation, advice or whatever is appropriate.

Also dont take anyone on the net personaly unless they say so its the medium that brings much agression in it sice you cant hear tones nor se faces

PS actualy the only way you could know you have a good imagination or not is to be in a brainstorming team with other very creative people. But ive rather come to the conclusion is that if you realy want creatvity take a 60 year old and a 15 year old and put them brainstorming!

ruddy 2003-09-06 16:54:47 UTC #15

I was certainly not attacking your sense of art. I agree with what i think you mean, however there is also an art to using words and language to express yourself. If you can not understand the problems with your original personal quote, then i am evidently unable to communicate my meaning to you. Symbols are a bitch, but they are all we have. Do you read your posts before you send them? This is your original personal quote. Honest, I was just trying to help you not continually look...whatever

"Tools don't make artists but is the artist's imagination that sparks creativity"

desertboy

You may or may not get what you want,
You always get what you accept.

user_deleted 2003-09-06 21:47:46 UTC #16

Sorry as I'm still suffering from caffiene withdrawl. I was drinking over 20 cups a day...half were lattes and now down to 4 cups. So I can't stay up for 3 days straight anymore animating but at least I won't have a heart attack either. Sorry again for my bitchiness.

Cheers

nuabudikae 2003-09-07 23:25:00 UTC #17

Lets all join virtual hands and sing "Kumbiya!" lol

Isn't it amazing how often times things meant innocently enough can be seen differently through someone else's eyes? =)

At an rate in regards to the G5 stuff. Yes i am very aware of Monarch as well as BoXX Technologies as well as a few others to be honest with you. At this point though you get a better value out of Apple (go figure!!) with the dual 2ghz G5 box.

Also the PowerPC 970 chip (G5) is a pure 64bit chip. It is the software that will control what will run in 64bit or 32bit mode. This contrasts quite heavily with the Itanium solution as well as AMD's deal.

From my understanding, A64 either has to be 32bit or 64bit, not both at the same time. You will need to reboot if you want/need to run in one mode or the other. You cannot do both at the same time.

Itanium is kludgeware at best. It does pretty well with FP math (which is all rendering type stuff) but you have to write applications for their EPIC standard. Also if you want to run any 32bit apps you have to do so through crappy emulation mode which doesn't work terribly well and is very slow by today's standards.

It looks like Apple has a winner on their hands thanks to IBM's engineering design excellence. It is an efficient and well designed piece of silicon and its real benefits shine in dual or quad mode implementations.

But for a large shop i would not recommend going with any one platform or tool. If you have the resources then go multi platform and multi tool to use the best to get the job done. Heck if you want you can run Linux on PowerMac hardware. People do it all the time. =D

From a security point of view you had better have at least one FireWall, perhaps a proxy and depending on platform very up to date virus definitions. Perhaps even 2 virus apps for additional safety.

Windows is a dinosaur and thanks to Linux it will start to become extinct.

my .02

ruddy 2003-09-08 07:46:28 UTC #18

DK,
Ahh, caffine, legal speed. I like to grind it to dust and roll in it.

My daddy always told me, the hard part of any job is knowing which tool to use.
Art and accounting both live between your ears.
The difference is hard to explain.
Peace to you and your four cups.

desertboy

1000101- 2003-09-08 16:09:16 UTC #19

Marketting for the most part. If anything Itanium is "more" 64 bit than either. It has no native way of running 32 bit binaries and bears no relation to any 32 bit chips available.
If anything AMD64 is the equivellent of PPC64 ; both supporting backwards binary compatability.

Where'd you read anything to give this impression? Everything I've read on Ar's and Anand tells me that a few lines of assembly can switch the CPU into 64 bit mode and back. You should be able to run 32 bit apps on 64 bit OS's with 64 bit apps running side by side.
Just like IRIX and OS X.

actually heres a quote from the posted article:

Yeah; its serving its purpose though. Most people won't use Itanium to emulate x86 systems. Except maybe through VMWare GSX on a 64+ CPU system.

We know we'll see 2 way 970's from apple but I'm doubting we'll see any 4 way. Also the chip should perform well in 16 and 32 CPU systems as well.
Its definately a good piece of hardware.

heheh you can run linux[on the G5]; but why would you want to? all the softwares on OS X.

From a security point of view you had better have at least one FireWall, perhaps a proxy and depending on platform very up to date virus definitions. Perhaps even 2 virus apps for additional safety.

Either way AMD64 and PPC64 show alot of promise to move us ahead. Both seem to share similiar traits and both promise oodles of bandwidth.
heres hoping.

nuabudikae 2003-09-08 21:31:14 UTC #20

nicely done Russ. I remember reading a while back in the PowerPC book written by a Moto engineer (circa 1993) that the PowerPC platform (which IBM really invented) was 64bit from the get go.

Back in the day (early 90's) Apple convinced IBM to allow Moto in the group, to license the tech and allow Apple to dictate the future needs for that segment. Prior to Apple going PowerPC they were running 68000 series chips from Moto. So Apple's relationship with Moto runs deep. Way back to the mid 80's when the first Mac debuted.

At any rate there was the AIM consortium consisting of Apple, IBM and Motorola. IBM has always stuck to the highend of PowerPC which they call their POWER line (you see it in their big iron servers) and Apple used Moto to make quick, dirty and cheap 32bit variations for their and Apple's purposes.

Moto ran into serious financial problems and laid off tons of people here and there over the years. Scott Adams of Dilbert fame used to work at Moto. Hence the inspiration. Not only that but Moto has suffered serious brain drain over the years and some of their best and brightest EE's have moved on to AMD, IBM and Intel.

At this point, Moto pretty much makes PowerPC chips for cell phones, highend routers and switches. Apple is an after thought for them at best. They make pretty good stuff, very low power consumption, but they are falling behind (quite obviously) with the high performance curve.

Obviously desktop computers have seriously shifted into powerful little beasts thanks in large part to MS pushing WinNT.

But the Linux community on the Macintosh is growing by leaps and bounds just as it is on the x86 platform. The reason that some Linux guys and gals prefer to run Linux over OS X on Apple PowerPC hardware is because OS X is still relatively new and a resource hog. With Mac OS X you have two thick layers that the hardware works through. There is Free BSD that talks directly to the hardware and on top of that you have the Mach kernal. Mach is a fancy term for what Dr. Avie Tevanian invented while he was doing his doctoral work at Carnigie Melon University. When he got out of school he went to work for Jobs at what was then NeXT computer.

Mach is a Unix home grown derivative. It became NeXT's NeXTStep and then eventually OpenStep Operating Systems. Its good stuff and at this point is the crown jewel to what makes Mac OS X Apple's unique child. They have integrated OpenGL, QuickTime, Aqua (very flexible UI), Java and some other stuff for good measure.

But since Apple has to tweak and optimize two layers that takes time. Mac OS X here at home is chugging along happily on an old G3 300mhz chip and a crappy ATI Rage Pro 8meg video card. But the OS is very responsive, it just LOVES ram. It felt really sluggish when i only had 128megs in it. Once i upped it to 384 things started getting really responsive and snappy. 1280x1024. It isn't beefy enough for 3d work at this point but for all of my other computing tasks it is just fine.

Is it as fast as my Athlon Barton XP 2500+ (1.83ghz) with 1 GIG of DDR PC 3500 RAM (underclocked to 333mhz FSB to match FSB on chip? Hell no! But it is a different type of system.

At this point i can't afford a nice new dual G5 just starting a new job and all. So in the mean time i will either get an older dual G4 1.25ghz ish or get a single G5 for 1500.00 ish. I need a modern Mac to get some of my work done that is processing power intensive.

As far as Apple kicking out a quad XServe. Count on it. I doubt it will debut at 2 ghz each chip, but they can do it now. They may do four 1.6ghz chips which run cooler than the overclocked 1.8ghz chips they have at 2ghz now. Also as you well know my brother, server boxes are typically much louder then desktops in the server room. So Apple will be a little bit less restrained with the heat issues of these bad boys. They can have bigger, louder fans to deal with the heat and the racketing noise of hard drives.

I really think AMD is doing a lot of great things for the industry. Many of their best EE's are former DEC Alpha guys that got POed and left once Intel bought them a number of years ago. Intel got caught with their hand in the cookie jar of DEC IP and either had to continue the fight in court or they had to buy them. So they pulled a MS and bought them out instead.

I look forward to building a dual Athlon 64 SOON. I plan on running Gentoo Linux on it since it is a very inexpensive distro and is A64 ready now.

I just wish i had more time in the day to play with more things. I'm seriously considering getting into software dev at this point. When i go back to school nights next semester it will either be to finish my Art degree in Painting or i will go full tilt with computers and get my BS in Comp Sci. IM me when you get a chance, i would like to talk with you about a few cpu things.

Peace and thanks,

john

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