New to Maya, .mov, .obj

[spheric]

Hi all,

I am new to Maya and have a few questions. We are a 3Dstudio which works entirely MAC based. We try to integrate Maya into our work environment. It runs on the first NT box that this studio owns. I am trying to syncronize Maya via .mov im- and export to our other 3D applications. Now, whenever I save a .mov file it appears with a quicktime-movie icon in the windows. This seems to be no problem for Maya. But when I copy this file to any of our MACs they will not open it in any text editor because during the copy process a ressource fork is added to the file claiming to be a quicktime movie which is somewhat annoying. Same with a doubleclick onto the file under NT - movieplayer opens. The current workaround is to rename the file under NT.
Q: How can I tell Maya not to make a .mov extension rather than a .txt extension? is there a way to tell Maya to use another suffix? Is there a way to tell Maya to see and open motion data wich is stored with another suffix rather then .mov (.bvh i.e.)?

I try to work with OBJ files from various sources within Maya. I have had limited luck to open them in Maya. Sometimes Maya gives me an Error, sometimes it does nothing and sometimes it proceeds as expected but very slow (on a dual pentium3). Does anyone know if there are any limitations to Mayas obj implementaion? We use OBJ all the time as a very reliable exchange format and have had not problems so far. Shall we use DXF as exchange format for polygon data? Are there different "flavours" of OBJ (would be new to me)?

I am completely new to NT so please forgive me any dumb questions I may have asked.

Thank you.

Jens C. Moeller
jcm@ramjac.com
www.ramjac.com

Jens C. Moeller
spheric@ramjac.com
www.ramjac.com

[clwyd]

Hi, you could try saving seperate frames (targa's, pict's etc.) take them across to the Mac load them into Movieplayer as an image sequence and get your movie that way.Also if a file somehow ends up with the wrong extension (.mov, .txt etc.) then you should just be able to rename themwith the correct extension.The resource file you should be able to bin.My boss is always giving me files from his Mac which have the wrong extension but as long as I know what file format it is I can just rename it using the appropiate extension.As for .obj I have found that .dxf is far more reliable.This dosn't make sense bacause .obj is obviously AW's native file format but none the less I still find .dxf better.
Hope this helps.

Clwyd

Clwyd

[heydiddlediddle]

There's something in either the control panel (I think it's called EasyOpen, makes it harder to open actually) or in Fetch that sets that .mov file to become a "quicktime" file in the transfer. I forget where, but you can control that on the Mac side. Another solution might be to zip up the .mov data. Chances are, Fetch, or whatever you're using to FTP the files from the PC box is transfering it binary instead of text (ascii). You may have problems with pc carriage returns vs. mac vs. unix carriage returns as well, even if you get that false quicktime problem fixed. You can try making the mac the ftp server (MacPrezense, or something like that, works fine for me with Mac OS 8.6, and I know it works with as low as 7.5 as well), that might solve your problems with the pc/mac tower of babel effect. I think there may be a plugin or script that lets Maya read .bvh files, but I'm not quite sure. Why are you transfering motion data from Maya to the Mac anyways? Is this a Poser or EIAS thing? As for file extensions from Maya, click the option box in "save as", make sure that "default file extensions" isn't clicked on, or maybe you have "show file extensions" turn off in the windows explorer option box (or somewhere..i forget exactly where)

finally, the obj problem. I use .obj files on a regular basis, make sure the program you export your .obj from exports with unix carriage returns. FormZ does this well, and on the PC side there are a couple file conversion programs where the different (Mac, PC, UNIX) carriage return styles are an export option. If the file is large, it will be slow. And as for your dual PIII, that only matters in IPR and rendering. Maya isn't multi-threaded, and uses only one CPU for everything but rendering and IPR, at least until Maya3.0. I used to be a Macophile, and the thing that is the key to most your problems will probably be in carriage returns. BBEdit (on the Mac side) and a good text editor on the PC side may come in very handy for this, get it and you're life will be easier. Try PCMacLANPro (or something to that effect by Mirimar Software) for networking the two. The Mac shows up in the Network window, and the PC shows up in the chooser.

hope my babelling helps.

[spheric]

Try PCMacLANPro (or something to that effect by Mirimar Software) for networking the two. The Mac shows up
in the Network window, and the PC shows up in the chooser.

I guess this is the way the NTbox is connected to our ethernet and not via FTP. I did not install this stuff personally to make sure everything will work afterwerds (something I really have to get used to). The problem with the .mov files I usually correct by changing the filetype with filetyper on the MAC or to rename it on NT. It sounds like I should bury my understanding of what a "file" and "filemanagement" really means with this mixed setup. OK, I thought that it would get uncomfortable. For the obj im- and export I have to do some more testing. I have this for two weeks now and are in the middle of a job - no time for testing.

Why are you transfering motion data from Maya to the Mac anyways? Is this a Poser or EIAS thing?

Actually both. Our main application is EIAS here, and since P4 we use Poser quite extensive. I'd like to do podraces and that kind of stuff . The large databases crunched by Camera and all this nifty little special effects made with Maya and combined in After Effects. Poser seems to be a good choice for out of the box figure geometry and texture maps for Maya. Are there any commercial Maya libraries for such stuff (beside viewpoint)? A bvh import like in EIAS would be handy for Maya. EIAS constructs a whole joint hirarchy for the importet bvh - would be cool for Maya too. Since I have only scrached the surface of Maya I guess that someone could write (or has written) some MEL thingie to do this job. Right now I have to orient myself in the brave new Maya/NT world to get an idea where to look for such stuff on the web (and how to use it).

I have used BBEdit extensively in the last time to hack .bvh data to .mov (move - not quicktime) data and stuff. My favourite idea is to code some little daragndrop utilities that will do this stupid conversions on the fly on my MAC.

Thank you for your in depth answer and thank you to be a Macophile. I felt a little strange when I first entered here.

Jens C. Moeller
spheric@ramjac.com
www.ramjac.com

Jens C. Moeller
spheric@ramjac.com
www.ramjac.com

[heydiddlediddle]

Serv-U is a good all around shareware FTP server for the NT, and NetPresenz (I looked at the spelling) is a good FTP server for the Mac. On the client end, I use CuteFTP and WS_FTP on the NT/Win machines, and Fetch on the Mac.

Macophile, well, not so much anymore. The last Mac I bought ia an 8100/100, and I rarely touch the 9600/233 here at the studio in Korea. And sad enough, I bought a laptop and another workstation recently, but they consist of a Sony Win98 Viao laptop, and a dual PIII HP workstation. Sad to say, I really don't forsee buying another Mac, except maybe an Avid system, or a Protools setup for our US studio. All our production here is done on a couple Onyx's, IndigoII's, and a bunch of Intergraphs. And to think, a few short years ago, I would have sworn I'd never buy a Bill Gates product, then came along MicrosoftImage.

Sounds like EIAS has come a bit of a ways since I used it. I stopped upgrading at I think it was version 2.5.2. I do miss the speed of Camera, and the nice motionblurs that it has, as well as the nice MIP mapping abilities. The flickering antialiasing in Maya is driving me nuts. Try exporting your models from EIAS, EIAS seems to have always had pretty good file format support. Is Granger still the lead programmer with EIAS?

I keep trying to convince myself change is good....someone say Linux?...

[spheric]

All our production here is done on a couple Onyx's, IndigoII's, and a bunch of Intergraphs.

I see. We are only a small studio. It would be to expensive to switch our entire setup. And our MACs still do a good job.

... then came along MicrosoftImage.

Is it still Microsoft? I thought they dropped it after they had managed to make NT a 3D-platform with this. I've heard that MS will drop OGL support, is that true?

Sounds like EIAS has come a bit of a ways since I used it.

In certain areas, yes. In others no. Don't ever compare Mayas animation abilities to EIAS. You actually can't compare this. Maya is to advanced. On the other hand, don't ever compare Camera with the Maya renderer. Not to mention the model parser and the file support.

Is Granger still the lead programmer with EIAS?

Yes. The last I heard (read) was a public eMail of Granger concerning SWPM, about the use of EI in the flick. After all Camera is still THE ei feature. Only Renderman can top it IMHO.

I keep trying to convince myself change is good....someone say Linux?...

I keep trying to convince myself that adopting is good. Linux? Why not?

Jens

[heydiddlediddle]

It was Microsoftwhen I first bought Softimage, it's Avid now. Dropping OpenGL, I read that somewhere, I think it was here on lumis, er highend3d.com. I doubt they'll drop it, they'll just stop supporting it, otherwise, 3d will move from NT and end up on Linux, or some other OS. I highly doubt that MS can set a standard for 3d interactivity, except for maybe games.

MentalRay looks quite nice too, as nice as Renderman in many ways. I think EIAS's Camera is nice, but the way it was when I last used it, it still needed work (such as selective raytracing, displacements, scriptability (like hacking a .rib, .sdl, or .mi file). EIAS was so closed off for so long, I think that "mac" elitism may be their downfall. Is that SGI camera that they've been talking about for the last 5 years out yet? Is the NT version out? I remember going to EIAS user meetings to hear a lot of hype about how it's going to be...key words "going to be"...I couldn't wait. I just feel a bit neglected by them having paid the thousands, rather than two thousand, for the program, to never get anything in return for sticking with them when they dropped the prices to compete with 3DMax. All that talk at the user meetings about how it rates up there with Alias, Softimage, etc...only to have it take forever for upgrades, and to drop the price to be a Max competitor, instead of adding a programming staff to make it a A|W, SI3D, or Houdini/Prisms competitor...I always felt that they had too much of this weird MacElite elitist aura about them. Just as when CoSA used to say After Effects will never be on anything but the Mac.

I rememember when I and other users would ask about supporting any sort of spline surfaces, their answer was something like, "It all gets tesselated into polys anyways at rendertime". They have too little staff for the amount of work they need to do. Is that "radiosity" thing they demo out yet? They demo well, but like the concept cars of Detroit, who knows when, if at all, they'll implement things. Nonetheless, I like their motion blurs, and the softness of Camera's renders. Now if Maya rendered as fast, with as high a quality antialiasing, I'd be a happy boy...well, almost happy..there's still a few Softimage things that Maya would need to truly live up to what AW claims Maya is...

As for Starwars, I think a lot of previz was done with EIAS, some (maybe all) of the outer space shots (John Knoll is a BIG EIAS fan from what I enderstand). Does EIAS take expressions for animation yet? Or is it still a case of using Excel to crunch the numbers and copy paste?

[spheric]

I think EIAS's Camera is nice, but the way it was when I last used it, it still needed work
(such as selective raytracing, displacements, scriptability (like hacking a .rib, .sdl, or .mi file).

Camera is still all Phong. Many of the things you adressed are on the feature list of the next upgrade - but as you said EI (now Play) has a bad record of things announced and delivered. EI has been bought (they say merger) by Play a year ago. They have had not to much time to correct the bad habbits from the past but things seem to get better step by step. So just another "...going to be..." here. But I am optimistic. The whole issue you adress has been one of the main topics in the EI user forums the last years. They have lost many users in this time. I would not be here if EI where the answer to all my animators needs.

Splines are a reality with EI now. The modeler is pretty highend - tesselation better than maya (no wholes) - but until now not integrated into the interface (...will be in the next...). Radiosity is still in the works but no releasedates or anything announced yet. Amorphium is an Artisan equivalent (polys not nurbs) - but as the Modeler not integrated. They (the company) have a couple of nice technologies but still have to put them together. As I said - it will take some time for EI to reach what Maya and SI deliver today. Lets see how long AW needs for a reasonable renderer and a reasonable pricing policy. I guess I will not reach the day when any software will be perfect...

A lot of previz on TPM was made with EI, some (all?) outer space shots, the palace of naboo (sp?) and the landscapes in the podrace sequence. EI is well suited for large databases and 3D matte painting stuff. And John Knoll is some kind of god in the EI community. And no - no expressions in EI. We still go the Excel route. At least you can do it somehow.

Maya is here to fill all that gaps. I like the idea to render landscapes in EI and crashing podracers in Maya. At least this is a proven industry setup. If only the sync would a little bit easier...

I always felt that they had too much of this weird MacElite elitist aura about them. Just as when CoSA used to
say After Effects will never be on anything but the Mac.

Reminds me of an elitist 3DSoftware company that claims that its product will never be on MacOSx... what was its name? The worlds are getting closer - still the best that can happen for us users.

Jens

[heydiddlediddle]

Reminds me of an elitist 3DSoftware company that claims that its product will never be on MacOSx... what was its name? The worlds are getting closer - still the best that can happen for us users.

The best thing that could happen for me now is for A|W to focus on Maya's renderer. Every version I hope it gets better, but just as EIAS once said, I think A|W's response to the users is similar. "We're working on it, when it happens...blah blah blah blah..."

Lets see how long AW needs for a reasonable renderer and a reasonable pricing policy. I guess I will not reach the day when any software will be perfect...

I have a few problem scenes right now that make EIAS's antialiasing and motion blurs Utopia. grrrr.... >
Pricingwise, I think Maya isn't too bad now, considering you could make back all the money you put in on one station with once television commercial. From EIAS's $7500 (plus $500-2000 in plugins) pricetag, when i bought it, to now Maya Unlimited's $16,000 pricetag, it's not a bad buy. Especially when you consider the additional hardware costs from then to now (I filled up my 8100/100 with 256 megs of ram back when a 32 meg simm was about a $1000 and a 1 gig HD was about $1000) Anyone want to buy my EIAS license and a beefed up 8100?

[spheric]

The best thing that could happen for me now is for A|W to focus on Maya's renderer. Every version I hope it gets
better, but just as EIAS once said, I think A|W's response to the users is similar. "We're working on it, when it
happens...blah blah blah blah..."

I guess this is a common problem of the industry. The other day someone posted a quote from a Strata (you know Strata?) forum to the EI-list. The problems the author described sounded very familiar. I don't care anymore.

Pricingwise, I think Maya isn't too bad now, considering you could make back all the money you put in on
one station with once television commercial. From EIAS's $7500 (plus $500-2000 in plugins) pricetag, when i
bought it, to now Maya Unlimited's $16,000 pricetag, it's not a bad buy.

EIAS is now $2295 (+ an iMac :-). If you are doing a commercial with it - and you can, with this setup - you have not only payed the software but you can go and buy a car as well (If you charge todays common prices). Most commercial work is chrome logos, tuberides and earth in space scenes anyway (from my experience). When I bought my first EIAS licence (v2.0 - $7500) the prices for SI or PA + hardware where beyond anything I could actually think of. As I said - the animation feature set of Maya is far of anything we can dream of here in EI land. The price of Maya may be reasonable for what it does - but I would never base an entire production environment on it. EI is a workhorse - Maya is a pleasure model.

Jens

[spheric]

btw. it is nice to have this conversation with you. Thanks.

Jens

[heydiddlediddle]

I was once a Strata user...back before I knew too much about 3d, couldn't afford EIAS, and thought there was a "Make Myst" button in Strata. I've corresponded with a couple Strata users who stand by that program, but when I hear that name, a silly grin comes across my face, sort of like if someone were to show you a bad 2nd year of high school yearbook picture.

During my first job in the animation biz, I was one of the primary EIAS users at that studio (occationally, I'd get a chance to use AliasPowerAnimator), and EIAS constantly surprised me with the speed and ease of use. Most of what we did with EI was backgrounds and mechanical elements, although I did get to do a simple cartoony whale with the back then new deformation tools. Lately, a bulk of what I do is characterwork, so I migrated from Softimage to Maya since that's the tool of choice for the studio here in Korea. I don't plan on abandoning EIAS though, this correspondence has given me some new hope and insight into EIAS. I'm sure much has happened to EI since my last upgrade (2.5.2), and when I get back to the USA, I'll see about getting it upgraded, and if the NT version is out, maybe transfer the license to NT (my mac is too slow). Free i-Mac? Damn....I'll have to see if i can get something out of it. EI since 2.0? same here...althought I bought my license from a friend for a little less, but still way more than the current pricetag. Oh well, it's paid for itself so I really shouldn't whine. If I didn't work at a studio where they had AliasPA, I doubt I would have ever gotten to use it. I think it was like $45,000 for full blown AliasPA and another $35,000 for the machine back then, thank God I didn't pay that much for Maya and my NT, or I might have to shoot myself with today's prices...

And by the way, it's been nice having this conversation with you as well. A bit of a change from lurking around the internet, avoiding porn, and dodging those annoying e-mail marketters.