To Not Have To Reverse Engineer Half Of Maya's Mel Code Every Time I Want To Do Something

[user_deleted]

that would be nice.

[joojaa]

QUOTE(holographix @ 01/31/09, 09:29 PM) [snapback]300025[/snapback]
that would be nice.

Well just switch over to max. Then you will soon see that ability to reverse engineer actually makes the stuff possible. So yes it can bee seen as a bane. Since you end up doing so. But if you dont have that than theres so much less you can do, because you have not got that option.

But its a boon because if you can not do that you will soon see your options diminish to 0. Reading the code is the only true documentation in software because all esle is inconsequential. No matter what they say in the manual, codes still at end of day king.

Just look at the last post posted on the max forum:

http://www.highend3d.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=253342

Now as a maya user this seems rather trivial problem. You can allways change the way it works easily, even on file level. Yes its work, sure, its a hack and you nee dto dig trough things but alteast tey vere courteous enough to be verbose.

[user_deleted]

hm yes that max post is so odd seen from a maya user's point of view.... we're not used to that "I've tried using a hex editor to look at the files" yuk...

well I agree with you but like you said it can be a bane. for example take trax. I need to be able to create my scene layouts with simplified rigs (scenes with 10-50 characters walking around, I don't want face controls/finger controls/etc etc)

So I thought I'd write a proc called "upgradeCharacter". Let's say you've done your layout with 40 characters, and you're now getting shot specific and saying "hey I like this angle, but I'm too close to these 3 guys". Hit upgradeCharacter: your low-detail character rig and low-detail trax clips are automatically replaced by a high-detail version. (ie. full rig and full clips are loaded from disk, with filenames solved by the code based on character naming etc).

It'd be like replacing proxy clips with HD clips in Final Cut for instance. You do your "editing" with simplified data, and then you bring in the real data when needed, and the code preserves your edit points, timing, post cycles, etc.

Worflow-wise it would be awesome. Very simple to use, litterally one-click. Coding it is actually not that hard in theory, but for some reason the behavior of trax is beyond me. That's where reverse engineering comes in and I find myself sludging through code from... 1997.

QUOTE
Reading the code is the only true documentation in software

Another hardcore statement, gotta love it.
The point joojaa is that most people are not coders that's why there's documentation in the first place. but yes as I learn maya I can imagine the alias people back in the day writing a proc and then grunting about having to actually make a GUI for it.. like "can't these people just read the mel command reference?".

But it's one of those cases of, "is this really complicated or am I just really stupid". Ie. you wonder sometimes, if the stuff you want to code, shouldn't exist already. Then again, sometimes it is very specific.

[joojaa]

Rigging is a engineering problem not a art problem. So doing good rigs is essentuially a much more technicl thing thena ny of the others. You cant just swing it, you need seirous planning.

QUOTE(holographix @ 02/01/09, 12:09 PM) [snapback]300057[/snapback]
So I thought I'd write a proc called "upgradeCharacter". Let's say you've done your layout with 40 characters, and you're now getting shot specific and saying "hey I like this angle, but I'm too close to these 3 guys". Hit upgradeCharacter: your low-detail character rig and low-detail trax clips are automatically replaced by a high-detail version. (ie. full rig and full clips are loaded from disk, with filenames solved by the code based on character naming etc).

Yes but thats just because your in maya 7.0. Newer mayas already have this command called map character that has a gui where you just say what channel goes where.

Also if you wanted to do it properly youd have used characrter sets as fronts for the data. Then remapping it would just have been a matter of reordering the set. But alas i suspect you just added the set automatically without thinking about it. This jsut illustrates thet the naming never was any need as this was avaliable in 2.0. But yes character sets are a bit abstract so i can understand than nobody got that they should use them.

Its not magic, there's lots of scripts that deal with this, and ive been using proxy switching now from maya 2.0* its just a matter of designing the character rig properly. With this in mind, fixing things after you allready have lot in place is usually painfull (read the article on technical debt it applies here)
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The point joojaa is that most people are not coders that's why there's documentation in the first place.

Yes, point is you dont have to make code, YOU CAN make code. All the featues your after have been there from day one. Your just fixing up a special problem case. Where you've taken some technical debt at the start of your process and your now paying it back with interest. Yes you made it here faster but now its going to be slower because you didnt do it proper on the way. Its a concious choise form your part.**

But asside from this fact is that ALL HUMANS WHO USE COMPUTERS ARE CODERS! Its not different form using very high level gui to utilize existing codebase versus writing a script. For the computer its all the same, so aperson typing a document in word is coding the computer to do something with it. Its just not terribly automated.

So yes you can ignore it and not fix your problems easily but the had way. So yes you can oly look at is a s a additional resource. After all you choose to read it plenty of people manage without ever doing so.

• started out on 1.5 but spent most of that time assimilating the core ideas.

**although you dint know you were going to pay interest on those decisions.

[user_deleted]

QUOTE
Yes but thats just because your in maya 7.0. Newer mayas already have this command called map character that has a gui where you just say what channel goes where.

well Maya 7 has the character mapper gui actually, but it doesn't seem to do what it says.
I'm still looking into this. If I upload a test do you think you can look at it? I'm on 2 days of paying back technical debt ...

[joojaa]

QUOTE(holographix @ 02/01/09, 02:13 PM) [snapback]300063[/snapback]
I'm on 2 days of paying back technical debt ...

Well usually you end up paying a month of technical debt for each 1-2 weeks of accelerated development.

[user_deleted]

well let me rephrase that, I have been paying back technical debt for the past 14 months. Part of the reason I am much slower developping things now than I was two years ago was bc I am sick and tired of finding myself knee-deep in nonsense right when the deadline is closing in.

but for this trax / clip thing, I am actually at the beginning of a cycle. See the scenes with the 30-40 characters haven't been created yet, so I still have the luxury of doing things properly.

[joojaa]

QUOTE(holographix @ 02/01/09, 04:06 PM) [snapback]300065[/snapback]
well let me rephrase that, I have been paying back technical debt for the past 14 months. Part of the reason I am much slower developping things now than I was two years ago was bc I am sick and tired of finding myself knee-deep in nonsense right when the deadline is closing in.

That is a pretty typical sign of having taken a huge technical debt so yes 1 year of fast develompent will cost you the next 2 yeasr or so in pain*. Small things add up, im not a purist because i would prefeer working thet way, im purist because i KNOW wht kind of pain the easy fixes here and there amount up to. Eventually it all needs to work without glitches. And whatever happens, whenever happens, no matter how good you are glitches come up.

See thinking ahead is the key, often thinking today what the problem you will have tomorrow is the difference between a successful operation and anot so successful one. So yes you can rig however you want, but if you dont do it smart you will end up doing much more work than you tough you would.

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of finding myself knee-deep in nonsense right when the deadline is closing in.

Very common, doesn.t get better with better software. Just more experienced opeators. For example this topic:

http://www.highend3d.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=252966

The solution you asked about clear technical debt, its easy to implement works. But has certain very annoying drawbacks that WILL kill you when it comes to having to mop them up. So just because some approach works is not necceserily the way to do it, because it can backfire in major way.. And ist not like i dont underline it every week... but its easy to ignore becasu eit just works, except for when it doesn't.

Unfortunately one never learns until too late.

*Its far worse where I am working currently, as I didnt take the technical debt im there mopping up the bad job. Anyway the problem is you dont see it accumulating untill you spend more time fixing things than doing work.

PS: this experince will trasform you tough, you will be FAAR better next time. Because you can think ahead.

[user_deleted]

QUOTE
For example this topic:

maybe I am growing up, bc when you posted that reply on that topic I immediately went back and scratched that system and replaced it with a mel script that copies the node and its keyframes, time slips it, and links an expression to that, w/out using getAttr.

A couple years ago I would've been like "whooo cares, it works."

Except, like you said, when it doesn't.

And that's ALWAYS when the maya scene file is 400 megs, it's 5am, and your brain is spaghetti.

[joojaa]

QUOTE(holographix @ 02/01/09, 04:30 PM) [snapback]300068[/snapback]
maybe I am growing up, bc when you posted that reply on that topic I immediately went back and scratched that system and replaced it with a mel script that copies the node and its keyframes, time slips it, and links an expression to that, w/out using getAttr.

Ahh see yes if you wouldn't you'd condemn yourself to eternal hell. Part of the problem is that its easy to veer into it. I always describe this as if following path in woods, and normally in even relatively sparse but still visited are there's lots of paths. But see not all of them are human paths and just picking any path that goes apparently that way will eventually git you there. As you continuously swap paths unless you take great care during the way you might end up further form target than you actually started form. Now sometimes scrapping is the best thing to do but hardest to get done.

Imagine following dsicussion with the economic manager. "What do you mean thorw away all this money we have spent". You "Its been mis invested yes.". "But we can't afford that" then you go "we cant afford not to".

At the end of the day you are going to be keeping the system because reinvesting 2 years is NOT possible or even remotely feasible. So somebody usually you needs to fix those mistakes in afterwards while at same time doing the other things at the same time.

PS: i stole the line except when it doesn't form a speak at ted.com. Wait, i think is this one: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/dan\_gil...\_happiness.html

[user_deleted]

I wonder if there is a way to use this knowledge in production. Ie. get a product out the door so it's timely for the market etc. and know that you are building up technical debt, but plan for a team to clean that debt up afterwards. Ie. build this into your production so you CAN do accelerated development. Right now I'm having to do cleanup BEFORE I can get the product out the door, which is killing me.

[user_deleted]

Wow, just watched the Gilbert speech. Really ties into this.

[joojaa]

Yes definitively. Thing is engineers know a lot about this, its something that has been investigated a lot over the years. And lot is known about ow to handle it. Its just that often its not taought out to anybody until they kind of are hopelessly in this crap.

QUOTE
Wow, just watched the Gilbert speech. Really ties into this.

Yes, coincidentally it ties with happiness. Its topical right at the moment the entire world economy is paying huge technical debt taken by few unwise leadership decisions. And truly most things are like this.

Its here now versus on the long run. One should allways think about the long run, unfortunately its NOT easy.

[user_deleted]

it is topical for sure, I was thinking that same thing abt the economy.

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One should allways think about the long run, unfortunately its NOT easy.

I don't think it's even possible until one has been VERY badly burned. Then you learn. The trick is how do you then grow up and yet not lose the spirit of doing things quickly and optimizing. Ie; not trade in that mentality for a belabored one, that loves to draw charts and diagrams just to feel safe. At some point you do have to do the work.

[joojaa]

Yes most things are 2 edged swords like this. So no most issues dont have perfect answers no matter how much we would want a set of o this then this and then you get this. The want for this is why so many help self books sell. The clear evidence for it not working si that we arent all rich *

QUOTE
I don't think it's even possible until one has been VERY badly burned

Hmm you may be right, tough certainly some people succeed in this without getting burned. I think its enough to mop up to get it.

*mainly because then nobody would be rich.