Where can I learn Flame/flint/inferno?

[jamesk617]

I just wanted to know where I can learn about Flame/flint/inferno.
Can any one give me the name of places that I can get the training?
anybody out there know about it?
I live in Seattle,WA

[higginba]

I'd check out http://www.discreet.com/clients/roles\_americas.html and find a place near you that has some gear, and then start bugging them about interning there, with the intention of being able to hop on the machines and play around after hours or something. I think Discreet offers classes in their L.A. offices, but they're kind of expensive (maybe ~$2K) and only last a week. They're really more geared towards ppl that have regular access to the systems than they are to students. You'd need way more time than a week to get proficient.

[jamesk617]

Thanks so much for the advice. I will research more and try to get an internship soon. It's great to get advice from a guy who knows a lot more than me. Thanks again for your help!
PS: actually I still can't really get the information I wanted.

[aromanoca]

Hi James,

To add to the previous post, I think the one thing you may not be getting here is that there is no simple or direct path to a job running Flint/Flame/Inferno. Everyone who runs FFI has their own story on how they got there. One thing I can tell you is that there is probably not a single FFI artist anywhere in the US who went to a class and got a job running the box as a result. FFI is a deep and wide software package and it requires and incredible amount of knowledge about the software and the whole compositing and editing processes, not to mention how to deal with clients and other "creatives" that you'll run into.

I guess I'm saying that the first thing to learn is patience. After that, look for a way to build your skills to get yourself close to the "action" so you can get access to the software while your learn the FFI toolset and the processes involved one piece at a time so that, over time, you will be able to sit in "the chair" doing a small portion of the job and build on that.

My suggestion, like the earlier post, is to find a post house that uses FFI and try to get an entry level job there. Learn the ropes of the post business first (make sure your really want to pursue a career in the god-forsaken industry) then find out what the 'pecking order' is at that facility and get yourself in line to make take the steps that will lead you toward your goal. Remember that this will probably takes a few years and at minimal pay. And by then FFI may well be obsolete (if it isn't already).

As far as schools go, the only one I know of is the classes that Discreet offers and they are expensive ($2,500) and instense. And unless you have access to an FFI workstation to keep the learning fresh and put to use shortly afterward, it quickly become nothing more than a nice memory at best. Also, Discreet only has so many places in each class so they are frequently limiting the classes.

So, fianlly, to answer the earlier question on where I learned what I know about FFI, well I can only look back at everything involved in my career for the past 7 years from when I first saw Flame. I was a new on-line editor (in one of the obsolete linear editing bays) and I saw Flame as the future off effects. But I didn't just go to school and get to work on it because we had Harry artists who were better qualified to make that transition. I went to school but ended up taking a career step runing Henry for a couple of years as part of the progression in going from editor to Inferno artist. I have learned things almost everyday on the way and continue to do so...

[jamesk617]

Wow, thanks so much. I'm very impresed and learned a very solid lesson from you. So, I guess there isn't an exact answer for my question. I think I was too idealistic. I should have considered more about my abilities and pushed myself harder like other people did. Yeah I agree that everyone has their own story. Some people had to bust their butts archiving in a dark room, some people were very lucky enough to sit in the dream "chair" earlier. Well, I think I have no choice, but to bust my butt off to GET THE CHANCE to learn.
There's always time and physical sacrifice to reach the "chair".

Thanks a lot folks.

[splish]

Hi, You said F/F/I might already be obsolete - if that is the case, what will replace it?

Do you mean it will be replaced by a different compositing program or by a new kind of workflow?

[aromanoca]

WhenI said the F/F/I may already be obsolete, I mean that the formula that made them the most sought after name in visual effects has past its time. Whn Discreet Logic introduced Flame, and them Inferno, they required a huge investment in hardware and software, in the order for 3/4 of a million. Facilities that bought it had to charge high rate to clients and clients had to expect a good return on those rate in terms of creativity, quality and speed. At the time you could not match the speed by abything else around. That attracked the best, most creative talent, which brough the best clients with the money.

Nowadays, the speed advantage has been nearly erased with faster PC, Linux and Mac hardware all catching on to what SGI had been able to accomplish. Software packages like Shake, Cineon, Avid DS, Jaleo, 5D-Cyborg, Socratto and others all have been taking advantage of the hardware increases to offer systems that have all or most of the same capabilities as F/F/I. All that F/F/I has to maintain it leadership position as the sought after name with clients, is the now marginal speed increase (in term is seeing it happen as a client looks over the oprtator/artists' shoulder). For clients who don't have the need for speed and find the talent the require on less expensive systems, they can get good (or at lease good enough) result for allot less moeny. Even Discreet has seem the light and introduced Combustion and is "secretly" developing a new system that I expect will see the light of day come NAB. The rumor mill has it's name as Toxic.

So except for the clients who need the speed or those working in the realm of high resolution (film or HDTV) when the SGI speed is more evident, I say the F/F/I is obsolete and loosing ground. Discreet has done it part to try to stay ahead of the pack, but they can only go so far while still being based on an expensive SGI platform, and to switch platforms is not viable, thus Toxic.

[splish]

Thank you very much for all the information.

BTW.: Are there any message boards which focus on FFI?

[mercury]

There is a school in Portland Oregon that has 5 seats of
Flint as well as a Smoke and a Flame.
Classes will be opening soon, say around mid-May.

More TBA soon.

Best
Mark Noland

[infrared]

Hi

I think your comments about FFI becoming obsolete are well founded but, I have discovered the big post houses are still heavily involved with FFI as a key tool for their work.

I am trying to move into the post ind but feel rather shakey about going for Flame or combustion. Alot of time and investment will go into this change and I would like it to be a good move.

Do I go for FFI or Combustion? Does Flame really have the legs left to carry it on for the foreseeable future?

A rather large quandry - and by the way, apart form the US, where can I get training for Inferno?

Thanks

N

[burgerdog]

My whole take on the worry about FFI beomcing obsolete (which I do see happening, but not particularly soon) is that you shouldn't so much go for knowledge of FFI over combustion, because the main difference between the two (and any other compositing software) is where the buttons are located.

It's like Pixar or ILM saying they don't care if you know Maya if you want to be an animator. Learning the specific software is the easy part.

It is far more important to have a good understanding of things like roto, compositing, editing and whatever else you use the system for.

But I wouldn't shy away from FFI if you have the chance. It is quite the sweet system, and as long as there are impatient clients who want to sit with the operator and make changes on the fly (which is only practical on the FFI systems from what I have seen) it will be a viable career.

Of course getting into an FFI career (as I found) is not so easy. Get friendly with a company that has one. I started as an I/O manager and learned the software in my down time.

[artwrx]

I realize that this post thread is a few months old but I have a comments on the future of FFI and SGI for that matter. I agree that PC's have come a long way (especially Avid DS) but they have limitations when it comes to HD. Many posts on this topic have said that if you don"t use HD now then you should get Shake or Combustion. I think that is incredibly short sighted for 2 major reasons. HD is the coming standard for television delivery and it is being used more and more everyday. It is also fast becoming the format of choice for creating masters for SD. If you are doing broadcast work in SD and looking to either upgrade your system or begin learning a toolset it would serve you well to learn on a FFI system if at all possible. The second reason is that if you are mainly working with film, a lot more films are being shot in 1080 because of the cost savings compared to film compared with the low (relatively) loss of color bandwidth. The only systems on the market today that really are comparable in terms or color bit depth, processing speed, toolset and the ability to capture and playback HD at full resolution is a Quantel system. The Avid DS HD has a great toolset and is 90% there but it is limited to 8-bit output and 1/4 HD caputre resolution to do realtime effects in HD.

I suspect that the price of FFI products will come down or at least offer a lot more favorable terms because the price of Quantel products have been lowered by $40,000 with the introduction of generation Q PC-based products. Smoke is already being offered at better prices.

As far as the constant talk that SGI is a dead, slow system, I think the growth of HD and 2K film use will keep the present Octance 2 and Onyx 3200 selling for at least the next 2 years. SGI is aslo coming out with a faster Octane and Onyx system in the middle of 2003 that will keep it ahead of the pack as far as HD, 2K and 4K format use goes.

The new Discreet products (Strata & Mezzo) codenamed Toxic, that were mentioned are really not products so to speak as much as new code and technology. It will be out in mid to late 2003 and it is very interesting because it does all the hardware excelerated effects in software on PC's SGI boxes and Linux boxes. The first product that will use the new technology will be Flame. That is the good news. The bad news is that the price will be pretty much the same, between $100,000 and $150,000.

All this is say that FFI products are not dead and far from obsolete. I agree that you can use Shake and Combustion 2 on many projects and come up with great results but there is nothing like building a composite or effect and seeing the results instantly. FFI products (and Quantel) are still the kings of that.

If you want to learn the FFI toolset buy a Dell and get combustion 2. The toolset is similar and the process of building composites and effects is similar. after adding memory you should be able to get a decent system for less than $10,000.

I suspect that Apple is going to come out with an exceptional product that is similar to the new Discreet technology (all sofware baseed RT HD capture and effects) based on the compositing talent that they have acquired over the last year. You can bet that it will be around the current price of shake. When that happens, their will be major fallout in the post industry and their will be few companies left. probably Discreet because of the new software technology.

[jamesk617]

It's been really greatful that I could see many people are interested in this post. I've read a single word in this post and I was so impressed people are willing to share what they know about FFI..
Since I post this subject, I've been sitting in a dark room and editing my own projects and shorts..I'm still stuck in this dark and lonely room, which is my room. ^!^
Well,Well Well...What I realized is there are not many lucky people who could jump into FFI industry, but the important thing is that I just have to keep running toward the goal. I guess someday, somewhere I may be sitting on a real kick ass chair and working with cool post_pro equipement.
PS: I'm graduating soon and I think I should move to another state which the Film&Video field is wider open. Maybe just drive down to California...any advice for me?
I really think Washington is not the place where I want to end up as long as I want to be involved in the Film indus...Plus the rain gives me back pain here in Seattle.hahahaha.....

James

[jamesk617]

Hey guys, listen.
I finally touched the Flame. It was really cool.
I went to Oregon 3D for 2 days intensive basic Flame class last month. I thought the instructor was very nice and the class was pretty solid. I would recommand it for those who want to taste it.
But, the thing I've realized was that, ...what can I do now? I don't have access to it and I will probably forget about the whole thing I've learned from the class.
You need to think about whether or not you want to be a FFI compositor or stay with AE/ Comb.
Again, it was good experience though. I think I will take the class again. GOTTA save money...I hope I can make my money worth it.
Peace!!
James